Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive287
Springee
[edit]| This has gone stale with no consensus for any action. @Springee: Please be more careful with unreliable/deprecated sources. @DGG: "Reliable sources are those with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, independent of any particular point of view. Please don't conflate verifiability with political rhetoric." ~Awilley (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Springee[edit]
Arguing for inclusion of unreliable sources:
Rejecting opinion pieces published by reliable sources
I realize that all sources are open for discussion and nothing is universally reliable or unreliable, but constantly challenging reliable sources while pushing unreliable ones is a form of tendentious editing per WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH. Springee's rationale for assessing sources often does not seem to be based on any discernable guideline, for example they argued that an opinion in The Intercept is unreliable because "the person offering the opinion/commentary is just a reporter, not some sort of expert." This is becoming a huge time sink as editors are expected to explain basic sourcing practices over and over, and content is kept out of articles per NOCONSENSUS when Springee cannot be convinced, leading to whitewashing and NPOV concerns. This is not conducive to collaborative editing in a contentious topic area. I encourage folks to look over the talk pages at Talk:Andy Ngo and Talk:Tucker Carlson to fully understand how tedious these discussions have become due to Springee's participation. Springee, don't lie to Drmies, you knew damn well that the Daily Signal source was syndicated Daily Caller content. I clearly mentioned that fact when I removed it on 19 March and you even referred to it as Daily Caller when you first discussed it on 20 March. –dlthewave ☎ 04:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Springee, I can see how you could have made a careless mistake and confused Daily Caller with Daily Signal if you overlooked my edit summary and just looked at the URL instead of actually reading the source. However, you knew it was Daily Caller when you argued for its inclusion:
I appreciate Springee's pledge to refrain from inserting content without consensus that the sourcing is reliable, made on the good advice of Awilley. However, I don't think this will solve the problem, since it still leaves the door open to interminable talk page discussions about sourcing. –dlthewave ☎ 05:05, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Thank you all for the various perspectives on this. I appreciate the concerns with using a series of "news bites" and agree that it it would be ideal to write higher-level summaries of what reliable sources have to say about these BLP subjects. Springee and others have mentioned that we shouldn't be overly reliant on opinion pieces and should carefully assess whether or not they have due weight. That is certainly something that we should be discussing on talk pages, however Springee has specifically challenged the reliability of opinions published by The Washington Post and The Intercept without giving good reasons (beyond the fact that one was written by a journalist) why these normally-reliable sources would be unreliable for statements of opinion in this specific case. This feels more like an effort to build a "we can't include this because there's no consensus for inclusion" case than an earnest reliability concern. Editors mentioning WP:NEWSORG have omitted a key part, Folks have also raised the topic of civility. I would agree that at first glance, Springee's comments generally come across as polite and civil. I do have to give him credit for avoiding personal attacks. However, "civil POV pushing" is still POV pushing. I don't think it would be appropriate to excuse the behavior outlined above just because the editor said "please" and "thank you" while doing it. Editors have come forward as character witnesses for Springee's willingness to work with others to build consensus. I would dispute this, as an important part of consensus building is knowing when to accept that one's viewpoint does not have consensus. The long-running Bellingcat discussion is one example of Springee refusing to drop the stick and acknowledge that their objections have not gained traction among other editors. Building on Aquillion's statement, Springee doesn't seem to be trying to expand our coverage to include all viewpoints. Instead, many of his comments in the Andy Ngo Congressional Testimony focus on repeating Ngo's statement verbatim while removing (or insisting that other editors do the work of rewriting) any sort of secondary analysis. I'm unfamiliar with the idea that we should be avoiding sources that do more than just report the bare facts; I believe that secondary analysis is an important way to place an event in the proper context. We shouldn't be covering Ngo's questionable or demostrably false statements about Antifa from his point of view with no fact-checking. This would favor the subject's own views over those of reliable sources and could lead to the same "sound bite reporting" issue that Springee is so concerned about. There seems to be a misconception that if a source says something negative about a person, then they must have a bias against them. I do agree that practically all sources have some sort of bias, however we generally trust high-quality sources (WaPo, NYT, CNN etc) to report on events and apply labels accurately. Our writing should reflect the general mainstream view of the topic and in the case of some of these BLPs, the mainstream view is often quite negative. It seems that reliable sources just don't have many good things to say about Carlson and Ngo. We can certainly include positive coverage if it can be found, but we absolutely shouldn't be looking to bottom-tier sources for the sake of "balance". WP:IAR does not function as a veto or override to our sourcing guidelines; if an editor believes there is a special case where a generally unreliable source should be used, they should come with a strong argument for why an exception should be made and be prepared to accept that it may not gain consensus. The fact that Springee continued to use the same arguments to include a questionable source regarding Ngo's testimony, after a different unreliable source was rejected for the same reason, shows that he either doesn't understand or chooses to ignore this standard. I'm very concerned about the double standard that Springee seems to be applying to content. As his statements here show, he insists on establishing very strong due weight for content that he disagrees with and will often drag out discussions about minor points, such as whether we can use two sources that say the same thing to establish due weight. At the same time he argues that a person's Congressional testimony is inherently due or "something that people would want to read about" with no regard for due weight. I really struggle to see good faith when an editor expects others to meet certain high standards while ignoring those standards when it comes to their own edits. Springee has been around long enough to know better. –dlthewave ☎ 14:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC) Springee typed "Daily Signal isn't a RS" in the edit summary so I'm not quite sure where the confusion with Daily Caller would have happened. Whatever source he thought he was talking about, the point still stands that he characterized it as flat-out unreliable in one case and argued that an exception should be made in another. It would seem that the same logic should apply to both since they were each quoting a primary source that could be used for verification. –dlthewave ☎ 02:23, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Springee[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Springee[edit]I'm not really sure how to reply to Dlthewave's arguments here. This feels like weaponizing AE to solve content disputes, and not even content disputes based on edits to the article. Rather cases where Dlthewave doesn't like that I don't agree with their POV on the talk page. We have 3 examples where Dlthewave feels I was defending poor sources but they fail to provide any context and totally ignore a critical part of WP:RS, the part that says context matters. 22 March, I was actually defending material Bgrus22 added last July that was cited to The Daily Signal though they were republishing a Daily Caller article. At the time the Daily Signal was not declared unreliable and the very factual claims in question were not contentious and supported by the second citation, a congressional record. When it was recently removed I challenged the removal on the grounds that the Daily Signal was the source and since we have a record of what was said, per WP:RS-context matters, the source was sufficient for the claim. I asked RSN if, in a case where one source runs an article written by the other, which source is considered the publisher. In the end it consensus was the source was not reliable. Since I never added nor restored the source to the article what is the issue? Another editor found The LaCorte as an alternative source for roughly the same content, again backed by congressional records. Dlthewave seems to suggest I was the only supporting this new source but it's clear other editors also supported it [[3]]. As before, I did not add the source nor did I restore it to the article when challenged. The final case where I mentioned several RSP red sources is falsely presented by Dlthewave. I was making a logical argument, not suggesting their inclusion. My argument was to include any information in an article we need to verify that it is reliable and it has weight. The reliability of "Person said X before congress" is established by a primary source (the congressional records). As for weight, my feeling is that for most individuals, testifying before congress is a significant event and in most cases should be DUE in their own biography. We have a reliable source for what was said (the congressional record and C-span videos), the question is weight. My argument was if a large number of right sources, even unreliable ones, are saying "Person testified to this" then it probably is something that is important to at least some readers. Again, this was an argument for why such content should be in the article, not which source should be cited. Again, no edits were made to the article. When Dlthewave says I'm questioning RSs, they fail to say my concern is opinions contained in RSs. WP:NEWSORG specifically notes, "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact." In both cases on the 14 April the discussion is opinion/commentary published in normally RSs. I stand by my view that we don't automatically assume the contents of a RS op-ed article have weight for inclusion just because the parent publication is generally reliable. This is especially true when they are being used to make contentious claims about a BLP subject. Spudlace, while agreeing that the 14 April source was reliable in general, noted the gossipy nature of the claim that was being disputed [[4]]. The point of talk pages is to discuss sources and sourcing. This certainly isn't the first time Dlthewave and I have debated content, in fact we have a long history of disagreeing on several topics [[5]]. But this isn't even a slow edit war. This is a civil talk page disagreement about sourcing. Springee (talk) 05:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC) I think it is worth noting that a number of editors have expressed concerns with the state of the Andy Ngo article since 2019. The primary concern is a balance between including many negative things said about Ngo by sources that are typically politically opposed to Ngo and IMPARTIAL. As Blueboar said, the real issue with the article is SUMMARIZATION [[6]]. I think a number of editors have tried but in the end most just give up or in a few cases get frustrated, say the wrong thing then get topic blocked. Sadly, content is more often than not decided based on head counts. I work hard to be civil even when I disagree [[7]] and when possible seek consensus even with those whom I don't agree. For example Bacondrum and I collaborated on an intro section rewrite[[8]]. As for Noteduck's comments, it is worth noting that Noteduck was warned by AE for civility just over a month back[[9]]. Since that time they have made 46 edits. Only 3 were unrelated to me. Those related to me range form joining new topics to oppose my edits/comments, canvasing other editors against me and cataloging my perceived sins. Thus far I have tried to ignore the behavior.Springee (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
References
Rosguill, I have a serious issue with Noteduck's new evidence though I must admit, I likely confused Daily Signal with Daily Caller at the time (note my comment to Dlthewave about a similar mistake). The real issue here was if it was OK to include a quote comparing Ngo to Joseph Goebbels. That quote was inserted and removed several times by the 14 Feb edit in question and I suspect my revert was a quick one where I confused Signal and Caller. Keep context in mind here. The Goebells comparison was added and removed several times 9-10 Feb. (Original insertion 9 Feb [[11]]). Talk page discussions started 10 Feb [[12]] and NPOVN 11 Feb[[13]]. This material never had consensus for inclusion so it shouldn't have ever been restored after it was first challenged. The quote was restored again on the 14th by an editor who was site banned a few days later[[14]]. That is when I hastily removed it (the diff Noteduck cited). The discussion of this Goebbels quote never mentioned the Daily Signal (or Caller since I seem to confuse them). No where in the talk page discussion did I argue to keep the quote out because based on the daily signal/caller. I think there is a huge difference between saying a poor source is acceptable when comparing a BLP subject to a to high ranking Nazi, vs using a poor source to suggest weight for including primary source content neutrally taken from the congressional record (see ProcrastinatingReader's comment as well as my general comment above). Springee (talk) 20:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Rossguill, I would like to note one other thing that I think may help. A number of editors have suggested my intent is to push a right wing POV. I think it is more correct to say I don't like seeing articles turn into long lists of why certain people, organizations are bad. This is something that I think Masem,
Statement by 69.158.90.121[edit]Springee also has a habit of blanking complaints of "POV pushing." They have done so to my talk page, in addition to blanking complaints from myself and another "IP editor" on their own talk page. They have taken to citing conspiracy theories on Talk:Andy Ngo, including about Hunter Biden. It should be noted that Springee has a history of canvassing and of deleting warnings on their talk page. Springee has also faced previous criticisms of "POV-pushing" with regards to right-wing pundit Douglas Murray, indicating that there is a method to Springee's actions. It's no coincidence that they keep getting these accusations with regards to activities on multiple pages for specifically right-wing media. 69.158.90.121 (talk) 05:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Springee has since made two different (and baseless) accusations of being a sockpuppet. Springee complains of "AE" being weaponised, but seems to have little concern with trying to address my criticisms in good faith. I am also extremely perplexed by suggestions that the actions of numerous editors are "questionable." I'll admit that my actions probably do not conform to the culture of Wikipedia, it is because I do not regularly edit Wikipedia. I tried blowing the whistle on extremely blatant attempts to discredit reliable sources elsewhere, and have been reprimanded accordingly. Bellingcat was not the only reliable source targeted, Alex Zielinski has also been derided in Andy Ngo's talk page. What is even more absurd is that Springee used the Post Millennial, a site known for misrepresenting its critics, as a source to discredit Zielinski. As stated prior, Springee has a history of canvassing and votestacking. Their discouragement of participation, not just of myself but of dlthewave too, suggests that they are once again abusing the editing process to make disputes a matter of attrition, wearing down participation from other editors as a tactic to push Springee's own POV. With any luck, they discourage enough participation to manufacture the appearance of a lack of consensus. Kyohyi, policy on reliable sourcing does not constitute a "loophole" that subverts Neutral Point Of View (thank you Google!). Articles on Holocaust denial and deniers do not cite unreliable sources potentially engaging in Holocaust denialism in the name of "neutrality." The primary issue with Springee is a recurring pattern of pushing unreliable sources, the underlying commonalities between them being their editorial stances and similar reputations for peddling false information. However, this user has repeatedly acted dishonestly, even going so far as to repeatedly blank criticisms from other users. Springee's new accusation of multiple users being "canvassed" against Springee's edits only reinforces my position that they don't have any interest in objectivity. 69.158.90.121 (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2021 (UTC) I am frankly exasperated with there being little to no comment on Springee's violations of process, nor their citation of Hunter Biden conspiracy theories that have drawn scrutiny over the New York Post's reliability. DGG's hysterics of "liberty" and "free expression" ring hollow to someone whose talk page and criticisms have been constantly reverted or blanked by Springee. Springee has been demonstrated to utilise multiple tactics for votestacking, and has censored past warnings (ostensibly to feign ignorance). It's clear that there is a contingent of Wikipedia users intent on pushing far-right POVs, and that contingent has become increasingly agitated over having propaganda from their favourite conspiracy rags excluded from the project. It's one thing to introduce reliable right-wing sources (which Bellingcat is), and another to cite Post Millennial and the Daily Wire. Another glaring issue is that there has been a constant complaint of "left-wing bias" and denouncement of centre-right news sources (Bellingcat, Oregonian, Portland Mercury). Are libertarians like myself now the "left?" These are rhetorical tactics designed to condition users to the censorship of critical voices, and to gaslight the public by projecting their bias on to other editors. 69.158.90.121 (talk) 00:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Springee has now blanked multiple past warnings. As I understand, Wikipedia policy is that users control their talk page. However, it should be noted that Springee has a record of deleting previous warnings and feigning ignorance. This is not normal behaviour. 69.158.90.121 (talk) 18:37, 30 April 2021 (UTC) PackMecEng Springee blanked my talk page immediately after pointing out that Springee has a pattern of disingenuous behaviour and POV-pushing. Prior to that, I've had nothing to do with Springee. They came under my radar because I've been watching Andy Ngo after Ngo made public complaints to his fans about the content on his Wikipedia article. Springee immediately went to blanking my page, which further tipped me off that this user is not participating in good faith. It should be noted that Springee has a habit of deleting warnings on their talk page and later feigning ignorance when they continue to break the rules. 69.158.90.121 (talk) 01:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by (Noteduck)[edit]If Springee is simply being cautious and acting in good faith, why are their edits almost entirely (more than 95% by my estimate) related to right-wing political topics, exclusively skewing in one ideological direction, and always preoccupied with blocking the inclusion of unflattering material? Cedar777 and Shadydabs have summed up the repeated problem with Springee's editing: Springee reverts whole blocks of new material on a page related to conservative politics (I've alerted Springee to WP:ROWN repeatedly, apparently to no avail) claims the source is not DUE, claims the source is not an RS, misrepresents the source's contents, and if this all fails Springee then claims there's no consensus, essentially demanding a veto, ensuring WP:Stonewalling is the result and keeping the page purged of unflattering material. Springee's name appears on the WP:AN noticeboard a jaw dropping 97(!) different archive pages, usually many times over. Springee is highly litigious and recently commenced an arb request action against me, partly on the false basis that I violated the 1RR on the Andy Ngo page due to Springee's seeming inability to understand the difference between "reverts" and "edits"[16] Shortly after this complaint closed, Springee made a separate accusation against SnoogansSnoogans on the basis that they had violated the 3RR policy, apparently on the same basis of a misreading of the term "revert"![17] This was particularly galling given Springee's decade-long experience on Wikipedia, and I believe Springee weaponises Wiki policy to spook other editors, particularly newish editors. A recent example of tendentious editing: Springee apparently has made a unilateral decision that no sources marked "op-ed" or "opinion" can be used in BLP pages. On April 13 2021 alone they reverted a flurry of material on pages related to controversial right-wing topics:Tucker Carlson, Andy Ngo and Douglas_Murray_(author)[18][19][20][21] When Dlthewave brought this up on their talk page, Springee blanked it all without discussion.[22] On the PragerU page, Springee invoked WP:RECKLESS when I suggested material related to PragerU's well-established climate change denial based on more than a dozen RS's, essentially demanding a veto on new material, as well as crying "poor sourcing" on a suggested header with two dozen sources.[23] Springee also invoked poor sourcing on material on the Douglas Murray page based on more than a dozen academic sources, seemingly on the basis that "open access" journals were invariably poor quality.[24] Springee seems to have a particular fixation with whitewashing material on climate change denial.[25][26][27][28][29][30][31] Firearm pages and far-right shootings have also drawn attention from Springee,[32][33] while there are many more, I'm all out of diffs. It's worth noting that Springee does not always act alone and seems to have many editors sympathetic to them. For those who know Springee socially, try to put those ties aside when considering this pattern of editing. It's alarming that Springee is currently deleting huge volumes of material from their talk page archive,[34] an ongoing pattern that I think shows a lack of integrity. It's only because of the 20 diff limit that I haven't included more evidence - I've been compiling examples in my sandbox and you are welcome to have a look[35] Noteduck (talk) 03:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Bacondrum[edit]I've had run ins with Springee's dubious and often tendentious views about sources at Andy Ngo, Quilette and other articles associated with far-right American politics. I think a look at their editing history demonstrates a civil POV pusher at work. I think they routinely make unreasonable objections to reliable sources regarding claims that are not favorable to far-right article subjects. I am bias though, this editor has rubbed me up the wrong way more times than I can count, often over citations for fairly uncontroversial claims about far-right figures and media outlets. The ridiculous argy-bargy in post truth American politics at it's finest, IMO. Bacondrum 07:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by starship.paint (2)[edit]diff diff Not impressed by the arguments being put forth by Springee here. I wouldn't argue to include content because unreliable sources think it is important. Likewise I wouldn't argue to include content just because some readers (who follow unreliable sources?) would find it important. We have standards here and that is adhering to reliable sources. Furthermore listing Meaww above smacks of desperation - [45] - a media company from India which doesn't have weekend business hours, and has only two people on its masthead. The Meaww article in question is written by an "entertainment journalist" [46] whose specialty is apparently reviewing TV/films. Shows cause for concern about Springee's judgment, unfortunately. starship.paint (exalt) 14:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC) @Mr Ernie: - in using Levivich's First Law of AP2 Sourcing, we expect coverage from at least one of those sources, but I don't think we can expect every one of these sources (e.g. NYT) to cover everything encyclopedically notable. Regarding Cuomo's nursing home missteps, you can refer to Syracuse May 2020, Guardian May 2020, USA Today June 2020, ProPublica June 2020, AP July 2020, AP August 2020. Furthermore, the official determination of undercounting (by the Attorney General) came only in January 2021, and NYT reported on it immediately. starship.paint (exalt) 02:20, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
@Rosguill: - for additional arguments, I was reminded of an example when I read Aquillion's statement that Springee is tendentiously arguing for extremely loose sourcing requirements for things he agrees with, while arguing against even comparatively high-quality sources for things he disagrees with. Here's the example. Back in March 2021, Springee objected to certain content I added [47] on a controversy involving conservative commentator Tucker Carlson. The 3 sources for the content are Politico, CNN, and BBC, all generally reliable per WP:RSP, and Springee does not dispute their reliability. The content is based on statements Carlson made on his TV show, so there is video evidence, similar to Andy Ngo's testimony. One of the two arguments Springee makes is: Is this really DUE? This again raises the concerns regarding what level of "outrange" is needed before we add something to this article.[48] After I provided a list of 20 sources [49], one of two arguments Springee makes is [50]: Your list of sources doesn't address several issues. First is RECENT, which in a world of click to pay based add revenue means a cheep to write story like this is going to get a lot of short term press.Contrast this to what Springee said regarding Ngo's testimony: we clearly have a number of sources that think this is important ... probably is something that is important to at least some readers- and I think there clearly is some double standards here. starship.paint (exalt) 05:11, 8 May 2021 (UTC) If we wanted consistency, for a lenient standard, these 20 sources definitely thought that Carlson's comments were important enough to report, and it's probably important to some readers. If we wanted consistency, for a consistent strict standard, it's possible that the unreliable sources Springee mentioned with regard to Ngo were presenting 'outrage' on the topic of Antifa, and going for short-term press as well. Now, Rosguill you mentioned you were considering a topic ban. Personally I think a warning is enough. Springee's errors have been made in arguments and they have not been overtly disruptive. Based on the previous AE [51] case, Springee voluntarily restricted themselves regarding 1RR, and that restriction seems to have worked. I believe that Springee is a good faith editor who needs to be more cognizant about their own biases, and I am hopeful that a warning will be enough for Springee to change their behaviour. starship.paint (exalt) 05:11, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Kyohyi[edit]I'm going to pose a question to the Admin's below. What impartial (preferably also non-circular) mechanism do we employ to determine whether a source is reliable? Are we really suggesting that the editor Consensus model (E.G. RSP) is actually impartial. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:23, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Willbb234[edit]Firstly, Springee is correct in saying This feels like weaponizing AE to solve content disputes. The articles on which Springee edits are highly controversial and there are, naturally, many disputes and debates regarding content. Springee always goes about these discussions in a civil manner and is willing to listen to others, and allowing discussions to be resolved (for example, Talk:Odal (rune)#RfC CPAC stage Odal shape). Springee is correct to be cautious of Op-Eds and Springee's beliefs are often supported by others, see Talk:Tucker Carlson. Some editors want to shove every opinion and statement from reliable sources onto articles relating to the American far-right, and these should only go ahead following discussion and consensus. Springee often facilitates these discussions and actions by performing reverts where appropriate and participating in talk page discussions. Springee has been accused of not following common source guidelines such as WP:RS and WP:RSP, but I think that their comment This article might have a NPOV issue but if everything in it is sourced to RS the its not due to a sourcing issue. Instead you might look at how much weight is devoted to various aspects/topics and if any particular one is getting too much emphasis. (at Talk:Tucker Carlson) sums up their actions; they are not here to kick away RSs, but rather to add and remove information based off WP:DUE, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:OPINION. This may involve approaching, discussing and gaining consensus on the use of less reliable sources, or even those that are considered unreliable such as The Daily Caller, in order create well-rounded article that covers aspects of an article which the mainstream media can't be bothered or does not want to cover. Springee always explains their objections to the addition of content and is willing to follow up with more evidence, and, as such, it would be unfair to say that they are unreasonable as it seems those with problems with this are more WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than genuine concerns. As for the reopening and repeated removal of content, I would be much more concerned if this was performed several times in the span of a few weeks, but over five months, community consensus and coverage by sources can change hugely. Kind regards, Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by PaleoNeonate[edit]Adding the Talk:PragerU archives to the to-read list, that wasn't mentioned above, —PaleoNeonate – 19:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Thomas Meng[edit]I actually was the one who inserted LaCorte News as secondary source for Andy Ngo's congressional testimony and first deleted the Intercept's derogatory claim about Ngo, while most of Springee's actions are on the talk page, which do not warrant this AE report. Springee is not pushing any unreliably sourced content, contrary to what the OP claimed. The content under question is whether including the info that Ngo testified before Congress on June 29 is WP:DUE. Dlthewave thinks that it is not due since no "reliable, secondary source" covered it. But it's also no secret that WP:RSP consensus has declared most conservative sources as "unreliable", while left-wing mainstream media do not think covering Ngo's testimony advances their cause. That's why I went to look for alternative sources and found LaCorte News. But a left-leaning editor promptly deleted it, saying that LaCorte News has not "established any reputation for fact-checking", and is therefore "unreliable". As such, left-leaning users have created a Catch-22 scenario where a significant congressional testimony (that says much about a person's reliability) can't even be included in a journalist's WP bio, and when Springee goes to defend LaCorte News for such verifiable content, he gets reported to AE, smh. Springee is also NOT pushing to remove RS material. The material under question is whether we should include an Intercept journalist's claim that says to the effect that Ngo's congressional testimony in August was a "total farce" and that Ngo shamelessly omitted something he should've said. But this is completely biased opinion rather than news. And according to the Intercept's RSP entry, there is I also notice a shocking double standard here. Left-leaning editors can go to Ngo's page and carelessly remove reliably sourced and objective info from Reason, despite objections from Volteer1, while Springee gets reported to AE when he removes biased opinion from the Intercept. As North8000 noted, Andy Ngo's article is comprised of 90% biased opinions against him rather than encyclopedic content. I very much agree, also with admin DGG here. This is a situation where some editors are using WP's DUE policy for censorship of objective, verifiable information. Thomas Meng (talk) 21:38, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Statement by North8000[edit]I've seen Springee at work and they are one of the most polite, careful cautious editors I've seen who is willing to work on contentious articles. IMO at contentious articles there is too much viewing someone as an opponent based on which "side" they are on and even trying to deprecate them or use the system to do so. IMO the current article has too much of being a "hit piece" with cherry-picked narrow negative material having been argued in. I think that Springee has been trying to encourage having less of that and more informative encyclopedic content and has encountered a rough reception there accordingly. IMHO nothing Springee has done is even near requiring sanctions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by PackMecEng[edit]Yeah I have to say, I am little surprised by the accusations here. I am not really seeing much wrong on Springee's side. Everywhere I see them working it is always trying to build consensus even if it does not always favor their point of view. I will have to echo those above in that it is a little disappointing to see an attempt to weaponize AE like this. I would also like to register my total shock at seeing GW list themselves as uninvolved in pretty much anything AP related. But especially something related to right-wing politics. I mean just take a quick look at their recent AE and ANI filings. Every single one is basically targeting someone they see as right wing. PackMecEng (talk) 00:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC) IP 69.158.90.121 I have to ask. What is your thing with Springee? At this point you have already been blocked for harassing them. I think you should just let it go. PackMecEng (talk) 01:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Atsme[edit]I agree with North8000, and will add that I never imagined Springee being named in an AE case. Editors are expected to present substantive arguments in a civil and reasonable manner during the consensus building process, especially when trying to comply with NPOV. Of course the opposition is going to object to it and present their own argument. How is civil POV pushing not an oxymoron? A proper debate to reach consensus is, in its simplest form, civil pov pushing. Are we going to start topic banning all editors for doing their job? Unless one side is being uncivil, I see no cause for any admin action here. I'm also of the mind that these value-laden labels need to stop, because I've seen them being misapplied, or purposely used in a derogatory manner in noncompliance with WP:PA, and/or being attached to people who reject such a label. I don't think it is either accurate or proper for editors of an encyclopedia to publish in Wikivoice the contentious labels used by clickbait online news sources. We can use intext attribution and quote the source but that should be as far as it goes. Those types of labels can be just as derogatory and insulting as any other contentious label, be it motivated by gender, race or religion. If my memory serves, I can vaguely recall a time when we didn't even mention a person's political party in the infobox. As for sources, Jimbo summed it up quite well. Atsme 💬 📧 02:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Statement by The Four Deuces[edit]Re: Rejecting opinion pieces published by reliable sources. In this case, Springee is correct. Dithwave accuses Springee of "Characterizing the reliability of a Washington Post op-ed as similar to a self-published source." But News organizations says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." IOW, it has to be assessed on a similar basis as Self-published sources. Note also that this is a Biography of a living person, which requires strict adherence to content guidelines. User:JzG wrote, "if you remove opinions, you're left with the inescapable conclusion that Ngo isn't actually important at all."[53] That seems to be the problem. The subject is of marginal notability and details are being filled in with otherwise unreliable sources. I would suggest to both sides that if we don't have reliable sources to have a detailed article, the cautious approach is to have a stub article with well sourced material. TFD (talk) 02:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by 力[edit]Lacorte News appears to clearly not be a reliable source; if Springee were tendentiously claiming otherwise there would be course for action. I don't see any diffs remotely along that line or that justify any action. More broadly: the community and ARBCOM probably will BOTH have to have a serious discussion of how people are mis-using WP:RSP. That page was established informally based on the Daily Mail RFCs and as an index of WP:RSN threads, but has led to a flood of RFCs where the opinions of a few people allow editors to view news sources as "always reliable" or "always unreliable". This is, in many situations, appropriate. We do not want people citing The Onion or http://diply.com (a clickbait site once in the Alexa top 200). We also don't want black propaganda (aka "fake news") (white propaganda is in some situations fine) or sources that regularly intermingle fiction with fact. However, bona fide news outlets, even those with a clear house political bias, are primary sources. WP:PSTS states "it is easy to misuse" primary sources. I find that many of the editors active in American politics will not agree that contemporary New York Times is even a primary source, so am skeptical that consensus to improve will be found quickly. But the idea of a regime of GOODSITES and BADSITES and an implied suggestion that editors should not use their own reason and expertise to determine how sources are used ... User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:34, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Levivich[edit]First Law of AP2 Sourcing: There exists no fact X that (1) should be included in an encyclopedia article about American politics but (2) cannot be sourced to any book by any reputable publisher, any non-predatory academic journal, ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, NPR, PBS, C-SPAN, CNN, CNBC, Associated Press, Reuters, Bloomberg News, Foreign Affairs, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, Politico, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Denver Post, Chicago Tribune, The Boston Globe, Star Tribune, or any leading media outlet in any of the 50 United States. Levivich harass/hound 06:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Aquillion[edit]I feel that some people are missing the real issue here. It is one thing to argue for universally looser sourcing requirements in order to represent as many points of view as possible, or to argue for universally tighter sourcing requirements and less reliance on opinionated or low-quality sources - I try to lean towards the latter, but both are certainly defensible positions. The problem is that Springee is tendentiously arguing for extremely loose sourcing requirements for things he agrees with, while arguing against even comparatively high-quality sources for things he disagrees with. He is hardly the first editor to do so, and if we removed everyone guilty of that I doubt the AP2 topic area would have many editors left, but this seems a particularly stark example. More broadly... every editor has biases or opinions, especially in topic area like this. We work past them and manage to collaborate by sticking (as much as we can) to strict definitions of reliability, balance, and due weight. It is one thing to argue over the reliability of a source, or to argue for using a source in specific contexts according to exceptions such as WP:ABOUTSELF; but if an editor acknowledges that a source is unreliable in the specific context where they want to use it, yet argues that it should be included anyway because it establishes what they consider some vital truth or essential point, then what they are actually saying is not simply that we should WP:IAR, but that we should override the rules in the service of producing an article that advances their personal view of the world. I am certain that anyone who makes that argument doesn't see it that way, because to them their personal view of the world is simply the truth and any article that fails to reflect that is unfairly biased or woefully incomplete. But the whole reason we have the rules on sourcing that some people in this discussion are arguing we should selectively ignore is because we're trying to produce an encyclopedia that is more than just the opinions of its individual editors - that is, one of the core principles of Wikipedia is that we can produce a useful, worthwhile encyclopedia by adhering, as much as we can, to WP:V. I have no doubt that the editors arguing for special exceptions to our sourcing rules believe that they are doing so in pursuit of the truth and that an article without those exceptions will be unjustly biased; but it is nonetheless tendentious editing. --Aquillion (talk) 07:40, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by OID[edit]DGG: "there are few RS on the right. But we need to hear about their view anyway". Actually no we dont. This is not according to our rules on reliable sources and is essentially how racists, misogynists and other right wing extremes seek to convince people their views are valid (not that those views dont appear on the left wing as well, its just not as formally enshrind in policy). We are under no obligation, nor is there any policy backing for that standpoint. It is perfectly acceptable to use an unreliable source on an article about themselves (then we line up the 15 reliable sources saying why they are wrong) but we have no need to use them in any other venue. Eg we quote the Daily Mail in an article about the Daily Mail, but we dont use it elsewhere. Your view is essentially 'every view has equal weight and deserves to be heard' which is amoral, dangerous, and a threat to Wikipedia's integrity. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:51, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by JzG[edit]There is definitely a problem. I am not sure if the problem is Springee, specifically. Here is the issue: When multiple reliable independent sources describe a figure popular with one political extreme or the other, in terms that their supporters dislike, they will expend enormous amounts of energy trying to "balance" the consensus of reliable independent sources with pretty much anything that challenges it, in the name of NPOV. But NPOV is not the average between mainstream and hyper-partisan sources. NPOV is the average of mainstream sources. The opposite of mainstream is not conservative, or liberal. The opposite of mainstream is fringe. The fact that the majority of popular right-wing media is now fringe and not reliable is a problem for us, but it is not our problem to fix. Wikipedia editors are not supposed to mine unreliable sources, decide which nuggets are reliable anyway, and use them. We can report on what the right thinks from reliable sources that report on what the right thinks. God knows there have been enough New York Times interviews with the same three "women for Trump" in a diner in Pennsyltucky. There is also an appalling tendency to use WP:RSOPINION to justify the inclusion of any primary-sourced opinion from anybody who has a blue link. "X said Y on his blog, source, X saying Y on his blog". We should never do that. I don't care if X is Alex Jones or Noam Chomsky. Opinions are like arseholes: everybody has one, and we can only distinguish notable opinion by seeing if it's reported in reliable independent secondary sources. The solution, in my view, is to reduce the amount of blow-by-blow coverage, reduce the reams of verbiage about Twitter spats and other things, and edit the article down to what reliable, independent, secondary sources say, directly about the subject. I believe that 90% or more of these intractable disputes would be solved by doing just that. And if that leaves you with nothing to say? Perhaps the subject is just not that important. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:16, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Masem[edit](Not directly involved but would feel wrong to be included in "uninvolved" due to past participation at BLP/N + NPOV/N) I was going to write something longer on my usual NOT#NEWS/RECENTISM issues related to how we cover contemporary alt/far-right people and how Springee is at least appealing towards that, but I think its easier to simply point to what Four Dueces and JzG have written - the solution that needs to be done across the board is to significantly trim down these laundry lists of every slight reported in the mainstream RSes about these people or groups, and instead write at a high-level about these individuals, which would avoid the need to try to balance with poor RS; these need to be written from the ten- or twenty-year out POV, and not the Wikinews POV. We (Wikipedia) need to be far far less vindictive about writing towards these people or groups than the media does per NPOV, though we still certainly be able to summarize the broad opinions of the media about these people and groups. This may require a wholly separate centralized discussion to consider but that's beyond the scope of AE here. --Masem (t) 15:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Bgrus22[edit]
Statement by Crossroads[edit]This very much looks to me like an attempt to take down an opponent. I have always found Springee to be both exceedingly civil and making an utmost effort to be balanced in some very difficult topic areas. I don't see serious problems warranting a topic ban above at all. For example, he is absolutely on good ground in rejecting a Washington Post op-ed, and especially on a WP:BLP. The Four Deuces covered this. And that is the sort of thing being presented as grounds for "enforcement"? I agree with 力 (power~enwiki) that there needs to be a major discussion on the ideological misuse and distortion of WP:RSP, which has gotten worse and worse in the time I and it have been around. I've read and participated in enough discussions at RSN to know that they are little more than a popularity contest, and double-standards are rife. Things that would get a right-leaning source marked as unreliable or deprecated (which in practice is treated the same anyway) are waved away for left-leaning sources. Look at the WP:RSP entry for HuffPost, for example. It openly admits that it uses clickbait headlines which are unreliable and is generally biased. Would a right-leaning source be listed as green/yellow for "politics" if it did this? Would that not be taken as evidence of general unreliability or of falsehoods? Many other outlets that are heavily or entirely opinion and are openly biased are green if left-leaning, red if right-leaning, even if otherwise comparable. Yeah, yeah, asymmetric polarization and all that. That may explain the phenomenon somewhat, but not entirely. Editors' own feelings about what is True and Righteous will have an impact. The above is why statements about "the sourcing rules" are problematic. The WP:CREEP in AMPOL has been incredible, and the NPOV of these "rules" (as refracted through a thick lens of interpretation by individual editors) is very questionable. I am all for MEDRS, the SCIRS essay, and the preference for scholarly sources as specified at SOURCETYPES and defend those often. But when it comes to mass media sources, our "rules" seem to be going astray. And people are afraid to suggest this or prevent POV railroading of BLPs, lest they get labeled, explicitly or implicitly, as far-right/racist/sexist/transphobic/white supremacist. I want to emphasize that, regarding Springee, I see nothing but a run of the mill content dispute above, one that is well within even the current rules. Crossroads -talk- 22:04, 30 April 2021 (UTC) edited Crossroads -talk- 02:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC) Rosguill, I don't see how that can be a smoking gun at all. A brief edit summary stating that the Daily Signal is not an RS (possibly including UNDUE) for this quote consisting of (Graham's) commentary on (Nazaryan's) commentary on (Ngo's) commentary, [54] a statement of his own view for a very specific use, is very different from his statement about the Daily Signal not yet having been declared unreliable by the community (as quoted by Noteduck above), and in regard to someting also sourced to the congressional record. And really, it is quite clear that Noteduck is WP:HOUNDING Springee and seeking to remove someone they see as an opponent from the topic area for ideological reasons. Most of their last 50 edits have to do with him. [55] Noteduck also received a warning to "be careful and to abide to policies while editing in the topic area of American politics" less than two months ago. [56] Even if Springee were being as inconsistent as claimed, that's not sanction-worthy; by that standard many, many editors in the AMPOL topic area would be topic banned. The tendency on Wikipedia very much seems to be reams of forgiveness for editors perceived as favorable to the political left/progressives, and seizing on any seeming mistake to justify sanctions for editors perceived as favorable to the political right/conservatives. Whether conscious or unconscious, this needs to stop. And I say this as a proud Democrat who was very much relieved when Joe Biden won the presidency. Crossroads -talk- 04:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC) Rosguill, Springee being confused by those names at some point is very reasonable to me. Between those and the Daily Wire, there's just too many right-wing outlets named Daily Something-or-other. :) Regarding "stricter with troublemakers on all sides rather than to leave the topic a quagmire", two things: (1) I want to re-emphasize my statement that "I see nothing but a run of the mill content dispute above, one that is well within even the current rules"; in other words, it's just not a real offense, so no sanctions warranted; and (2), as a result of probably systemic factors, the strictness with both sides never comes; the topic area, especially including evaluations of sources at RSN and considerations of DUE, becomes more and more slanted to one side as a result. Crossroads -talk- 21:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by MJL[edit]I went back and forth on commenting here, and that's mostly because I respect a lot of the people who have commented thus far on either side of the issue. I also don't want to make a trivially short post nor repeat things that have already been said. Therefore, I am going to try and come at this with a fresh angle in order to make sense of my own thoughts on the matter. It's pretty much widely understood that Springee holds minority views and dissents with some current established consensus as it regards the AP2 topic field, interpretations of the reliable sourcing policy, and how best to portray articles neutrally. If that is not the case, I do hope someone will correct me if that is not the correct understanding of the situation. The basis of this report is whether or not Springee can be considered disruptive due to his:
Of the diffs provided to support both claims, 6 diffs occur in talkspace and 3 diffs occur in mainspace (all ranging from a 6 month period). All of the mainspace diffs regard Point B. I don't think that Point A in itself is a sanctionable offense. Merely arguing that we should include a source of questionable reliability is not an inherently disruptive act, but there are times when doing so repeatedly could be seen as disruptive. However the three diffs presented do not support that here, so I think we can throw out Point A as it relates to conduct problems (people are free to debate the underlying content dispute there, but I'm going to ignore that). Now, Point B is a sanctionable offense in my opinion.. except when it comes to WP:BLPs. We have a higher standard for inclusion of material regarding BLPs for legal and policy reasons, and I have not seen enough evidence that Springee was removing these sources in anything other than good faith. I mean.. we aren't talking about news reports here from reliable sources; he was removing opinion pieces, right? Opinions on a BLP are going to inherently be contentious, and that is going to be double the case if said opinions are negative. Editors should be encouraged to freely debate said topics and discuss article inclusions standards on a case-by-case basis. Don't get me wrong; there might be a reason to sanction Springee. I'm just not seeing it here with this specific evidence nor this exact reasoning. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nsk92[edit]Both WP:V and WP:NPOV are fundamental tenets of Wikipedia, but between them WP:V is by far more important. The matters of bias and neutrality can and should be mitigated in the way we present the information. But mitigation won't help if the information we present is factually inaccurate. We are not fact-checkers and we have to depend on reliability of the sources that we use. That's how Wikipedia works. That's why it is a cardinal sin on Wikipedia to push the use of a known unreliable source. Pleading for balance cannot be accepted as an excuse or an explanation. Just a few days ago the New York Post published a doozy of a fake news story about VP Kamala Harris. Even when caught, they didn't fully retract the story[57][58]. Now, compared to the Daily Caller, the New York Post is a paragon of journalistic integrity. We should still try to avoid using the NY Post as a source for anything other than sports scores and the weather (and try to find better sources even for those). More broadly speaking, I agree with JzG that we should also be trying to limit quoting opinions (whether from the left or from the right) unless those opinions are themselves widely reported upon. Nsk92 (talk) 15:55, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Mr Ernie[edit]The problem with this blanket source deprecation is that it limits the availability of information to create an encyclopedia to a certain handful of sources and what they choose to write about. If Levivich's First Law of AP2 Sourcing is true, Mr Ernie's corollary holds that those sources don't write about everything encyclopedically notable, and not everything they write is notable either. An interesting and tragic example is that The Daily Caller ran a story about Cuomo's mishandling of nursing home COVID information in May of 2020, something the NYT didn't report until a few days ago. Either the NYT journalists deliberately ignored the Daily Caller article back in May or perhaps worse, decided not to investigate it due to Cuomo's status as a heroic foil to Trump, but regardless here's a clear case where "conservative" readers were better informed than others. Wikipedia editors should have the freedom to use that factual information where appropriate, instead of having it blocked on grounds of source deprecation. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Cedar777[edit]It is a time sink to repeatedly address quality of RS at Andy Ngo. Springee has argued against The New York Times, The Washington Post, Bellingcat, Willamette Week, The Daily Dot, and The Intercept among others. As other observant editors have noted, holding impossible standards for sources that express unfavorable content is only half of the equation - the other half is a simultaneous elevation of garbage sources that express supportive content. It's this combination that rankles a number of involved editors. What should not be lost in this discussion is that the odd logic used by Springee to support preferred content and to denigrate content disproved of is a recurring issue that raises significant concerns. I share a growing uneasiness with Springee's advocacy for unreliable sources, including The Daily Caller, LaCorte News, MEAWW, The Daily Wire, The Post Millennial, and The Western Journal. It's peculiar that debate over sources established as unreliable is happening with a user with over 12,000 edits. The long term logic by which sources are accepted or discarded seems to relate only to the content's ability to bolster or diminish a subject's reputation.
This user presents as a Civil POV pusher. When editors have raised concerns in the appropriate place on the user's talk page, Springee has swiftly deleted their comments. Diff 4 Diff 5 It also troubles me that the contributing IP's entire talk page was blanked by Springee, including the contributions of another unrelated editor Diff 6. This, along with recent mass deletions on Springee's talk page, indicates a lack of integrity and an absence of genuine civility.
(Springee earlier argued that the WP couldn't be used because Ngo wasn't mentioned outside of the embedded twitter content, making it rather odd that he suggests other editors are somehow at fault in the congressional testimony section for not finding sources that don't mention Ngo). Without a genuine effort to shine a light on this matter, WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH, i.e. Springee's advocacy for low quality sources paired with an insistance on holding unfavorable content to impossible standards, the situation is unlikely to improve. Multiple articles will continue to suffer for it. Cedar777 (talk) 00:32, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by Shinealittlelight[edit]So Springee makes a few arguments that are, let's say for the sake of argument, a bit shaky, and his enemies pounce on him. This is ridiculous. If you disagree with his arguments, then say so, and if you are right consensus will prevail. He's not violating any policies, and having people think you have good judgment about sources is not a requirement for contributing here. Neither is never making a shaky argument. Springee follows the rules. I think admins need to be very careful about chasing people like him off the project. He's a rare bird who is willing to try to make a contribution here despite being almost always in the minority because he isn't clearly on the left (I don't actually know what his politics are). Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishes[edit]It does appear to me that Springee argued to use sources that should not be used. But does it warrant any sanctions? That was only on article talk pages. If he would repeatedly insert poorly sourced materials directly to BLP pages, over the objections by other contributors, that could be a reason. But I do not see it in the diffs provided by filer. If Springee would argue about it on article talk pages, over a prolonged period of time, that could also be a reason per WP:Idonothereit. But again, I do not see this over a prolonged period of time, at least in the diffs originally provided by the filer. Yes, one could say that Sprengee is an experienced contributor, so he suppose to knew better and did not argue about such sources on article talk pages to push their POV. But again, I am not sure that warrants any immediate sanctions. I did not read everything here, tl;dr, sorry.My very best wishes (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by ProcrastinatingReader[edit]So basically:
The argument used to exclude this content is that it isn't WP:DUE due to lack of coverage in secondary sources. However:
The Daily Caller et al are obviously not reliable. But the Congressional transcript is. As far as I can see, Spingee's tried to satisfy the DUE concerns by citing coverage in unreliable sources. While that argument is obviously not going to go far, the crux of the dispute is whether to include factually accurate material written in a neutral manner without appropriate coverage in secondary sources. It isn't sanctionable to make this argument. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by Calidum[edit]I'm not sure there is much else to be said, but just so everyone is aware this isn't Springee's first trip here. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive272#Springee. -- Calidum 18:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by Hob Gadling[edit]My field is fringe theories: pseudomedicine, pseudoarcheology, pseudophysics, pseudo-everything-else, creationism, parapsychology, conspiracy theories, and so on. In articles about such subjects, you regularly encounter individuals who want to make the articles say what they believe, not what the reliable sources say. I revert their edits in the articles, I debate why on the Talk pages, and I notify WP:FTN. Those individuals are IPs, new accounts, sockpuppets, and/or SPAs. Some of them give up and disappear when they encounter opposition, some stubborn ones stay for a few weeks or months and get indeffed or topic-banned when it is clear that they do not want to adhere to the rules, and some learn how to do it right and become normal editors. But there are some fringe theories which have been embraced by lots of people or organizations associated with the Republican Party, such as climate change denial. On Talk pages about such people or organizations, Springee fulfils the same role as the IPs and new accounts in other articles where WP:FRINGE is relevant. He behaves like the more polite, but also more stubborn SPAs - sealioning is probably the right word. He tries to treat the fringe theories not as fringe theories. It is as if he thinks they become less fringe by getting added to the standard collection of ideas of such a huge group. But they are still fringe. When half a country believes a stupid thing, it remains a stupid thing. Because of Springee, and others like him, it is far more difficult to maintain a WP:FRINGE-compliant standard in articles like Tucker Carlson than in articles like Erich von Däniken. Examples:
It would be nice to have to use a piece of sound reasoning once, and being listened to, instead of having to say it again and again. I do not favor any draconic measures, but could someone please tell him that popularity of an idea does not trump (heh!) the rules, and that being part of a large group embracing fringe ideas does not allow you to ignore the rules about propagating fringe theories. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC) Result concerning Springee[edit]
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Thepharoah17
[edit]| There appears to be agreement. One month block without opposition. For BOTH editors. — Ched (talk) 04:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Thepharoah17[edit]
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan/Proposed_decision#Thepharoah17_topic-banned. The Pharoah17 is topic banned as already mentioned below by Bishonen. I would like to see action in order to stop these topic ban violations which sometimes even occur in user pages of other editors. I leave it up to the Arbiters/Sysops how to proceed with this issue, I just report it.
The Pharoah17s and Amr Ibn al Kulthoums blocks are not logged in the block log on Kurds and Kurdistan. I suggest these blocks to be included in the log for an eventual appeal when the time comes. I have the explicit [64] allowance by GPinkerton to use anything which they see as useful to raise the issue on Kurds and Kurdistan and their block. Don't know if anyone has such an allowance who also includes a diff on their user page.
Discussion concerning Thepharoah17[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. I am sorry. I am sorry. I am sorry. I am sorry. I do not know what I was topic banned for in the first place nor do I even know anything about this topic but I am apologizing. And can you just take care of that suspected sockpuppet that is being mentioned on my talkpage because I do not even know what to do about that. I am Egyptian for god's sake. What does Kurdistan have to do with Egypt anyway? There was just a sockpuppet that caused this whole case to be opened and I got rid of him and reverted lots of his edits and it gets called disruption for some reason. And I am wondering why you say I am experienced. I only started editing when the pandemic broke out and I really have no idea how I got into this. I actually do not know that much about Kurds. So what was said on Paradise Chronicle's user page makes me a bad editor? And just do something about that suspected sockpuppet. I removed that because I do not know what you want from me and I do not know what to do. I made 20,000 edits with literally zero problems and zero warnings. Feel free to go through my talk page history. Then all of a sudden I revert a sockpuppet's edits and I turn into a bad guy. This just started because someone asked me about a sockpuppet. If you guys can just take care of the sockpuppet, that would just be nice. I just really did not know what to do or say. If you guys think its ok for a sockpuppet to run around, then that is your choice. user:Ecrusized looks like he is a sockpuppet of user:Lapsed Pacifist. If you guys could look into it, that would be nice because someone asked me a question about it on my talk page. Statement by (Paradise Chronicle)[edit]The editor is rather productive in highlighting and maintaining Muslim and Arab related articles. On Kurds and Kurdistan though, they were absolutely wrecking havoc and this should be remembered which is what I do on my user page. If you wish to keep them, good luck. I suggest a longer block than just a week as it was the last time.
Statement by Nsk92[edit]First, Paradise Chronicle, you need to follow the required AE format and provide the relevant diffs, regardless of whether or not the case had been discussed at AE before. Each AE report is considered by a different group of admins and they are not expected to be familiar with the prior background here. Also, note that only the uninvolved admins are allowed to post in the "Result" section of the report, and, more generally, there are no threaded discussions at AE. If you need to respond to another editor's comment, you should do that in your own section. Second, on the substance, Paradise Chronicle is correct that several edits by Thepharoah17 constitute a clear t-ban violation, e.g. [66][67]. Moreover, Thepharoah17's claim above that "I do not know what I was topic banned for in the first place nor do I even know anything about this topic but I am apologizing" is not credible on its face. Thepharoah17 was notified about the t-ban as a part of the arbitration case final decision on February 27, 2021[68]. On March 6, 2021 Thepharoah17 received a one-week block for violating that t-ban [69]. Thepharoah17 attempted to appeal the block, unsuccessfully[70], and the scope of the t-ban was certainly made clear to Thepharoah17 then. Nsk92 (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Shadow4dark[edit]
Result concerning Thepharoah17[edit]
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Paragon Deku
[edit]| Closed without action - appears to be a good-faith mistake on the part of Paragon Deku, there was no topic-area disruption here. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Paragon Deku[edit]
None.
On May 14, I provided the user notification of relevant general sanctions to the Israel-Palestine conflict. On May 15, despite having been notified, the user chose to participate in a move discussion, despite this being explicitly noted as a sort of behavior that was restricted only to extended-confirmed user in the relevant alert. I am requesting
The user was notified at 09:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 09:23, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Paragon Deku[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Paragon Deku[edit]I was not aware at all that I wasn’t allowed to participate in the vote because I do not have EC permissions, and that is my fault. I will strike my vote from the record. That being said, the sanctions warning did not mention this at all, and considering my previous interactions with the reporting user on other pages, I cannot help but feel that this is a personal vendetta against me rather than an earnest attempt to improve the encyclopedia. I have been very even handed in any discussions I made on the talk page in question. Paragon Deku (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by Parabolist[edit]The notification you gave them says nothing about EC permissions. You've posted nothing to their talk page about EC permissions. You jumped straight here after striking out their comment, with no explanation of what EC permissions are. Given the fact that they are a new user, which is why they aren't extended confirmed, did you at any point consider explaining any of the complex rules involved to them? Even maybe linking them to what they would need to understand? Instead you've jumped straight to the club, which is absolutely indicative of SOMETHING. Parabolist (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC) Statement by selfstudier[edit]If there were to be a filing for everyone who voted in formal discussions but were not theoretically permitted to, this page would be very full. Why has the filing editor not filed any complaint in respect of all the other cases in the same discussion?Selfstudier (talk) 09:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by RandomCanadian[edit]Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel_articles#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions is rather clear that "Editors who are not eligible to be extended-confirmed may use the Talk: namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive." The relevant page has no mention of "formal discussions" or anything so that doesn't appear to justify, even if I ignore WP:CREEP, the claim that a good faith, constructive comment on a RM (which is not disruptive) should be striken through for violating one of our arcane policies. WP:AGF and WP:BITE are not just someone's imagination but common practice, and I don't see why we should do anything against the reported user. He's been here sporadically for just about 5 years, and is just some edits shy of the 500 count, and doesn't have any of the trappings of usual SPAs. They were notified about the sanctions (but not given an explanation as to why their edits might not be allowed) less than a day before this. Suggest closing without action, allowing their good-faith !vote on the RM to stand (done so), and trouting OP. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:11, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Paragon Deku[edit]
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Magherbin
[edit]This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Magherbin
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ayaltimo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Magherbin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- [76] His history of edit wars was being covered by the discretionary sanctions.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
Warnings:
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Magherbin has since made two different (and baseless) accusations against me of being a sockpuppet. [85] [86]
Magherbin has a habit of making bold edits and forcing people to follow his policy as if he runs encyclopedia. I've constantly been engaging in good faith with him. All this user does is follow me and harasses my edits.
1. It's started off on the Harari people page. I removed unsourced additions but were reverted by Magherbin. [87] I've explained to him on the talk page why it's filled with original research.
2. The source literally says "And settled among the Cushites of the Harar-Chercher plateau produced the semitised culture". [88] Nowhere does it say they settled the shores of Somaliland.
3. "By the thirteenth century, Hararis were among the administrators of the Ifat Sultanate." Does not state on page 228. [89]
4. "The sixteenth century saw Oromos invading regions of the Somali peninsula from the northern areas of Hargeisa to its southern portions such as Lower Juba, incorporating the Harari people." Does not state that at all when you use the search bar called From inside the book. No page reference either. [90]
I've decided to leave that page alone in good faith despite the page containing several original research because I was new and I didn't want to cause more tension. There was another page called Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn where Magherbin decided to engage in an edit war against me and another user. [91]
He wanted a one-sided view and was against other scholars criticizing his sources to the point, he thought it would be wise to undo both user's revisions. After explaining to him on the talk page he left the page after realizing his misconduct.
He has followed me and conducted edit wars with me on several more pages. [92] [93] [94]
Despite coming from a recent block due to edit warring he didn't mind reverting several articles against me and I decided to let him have it so I can use it against him in the future of how impatient and impulsive this user is when you check out his history. [95]
What I find very hypocritical of him is even if the Harari people page contains original research you can't remove it without consensus because it's a two-year-old revision. [96] I followed the same policy for Ifat Sultanate. [97] The reason for this was because we were discussing several topics so we can make major changes but he didn't want that. It's like he manipulates his own rules.
Nevertheless, I proposed a brilliant idea where we could solve our dispute. I told him on his talk page [98] that we should create sub-sections for people of Ifat Sultanate discussing both theories since there is lots of research on both sides. He didn't like that neutral idea because he wants a single POV to be pushed while repressing other views despite massive scholarly research. He made a claim that it contains original research and I asked him to please share which source contains original research. He only mentioned that Jabarta was a terminology for all Muslims in the Horn of Africa. I told him this is not from my own mouth but the words of a historical Muslim traveler called Al-Maqrizi. According to Maqrizi, the ancestors of ' Umar Wälasma first settled in Jabara ( or Jabarta ) a region which he says belonged to Zeila; they gradually moved further inland and occupied Ifat. [99] I also explained to him you don't have to agree with the opposing views because it's called theory for a reason and I explicitly told him you can expand your own theory section explaining why you think they're Ethio-Semitic. He didn't like the idea nor would he bring evidence to his claim that it contains original research. He would simply threaten me to self-revert after talking with him on the talk page for a couple of months. [100] This user doesn't wish to progress but waste time and war. I've become fed up with his harassment and calling on all the reasonable moderators to check on his poor behaviour and sanction him. I also want to note that Magherbin was an ex-sock puppeteer with a history of abusing multiple accounts and engaging in edit wars with multiple users. Ayaltimo (talk) 03:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I also want to add a few more things like he claims I failed to follow BRD policy. Where was your BRD policy on Malassay page? Where was your BRD policy on Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi page? Where was your BRD policy on Garad page? It's exactly why you got banned for edit warring, not me. I didn't break any rule I simply made a neutral deal and even proposed the idea on your talk page. [101] I've repeatedly asked him which source contains original research. He has failed to address them and simply gets off the topic without wanting to progress. [102] I've been dealing with sock puppets and vandalism on Ifat Sultanate page. [103] You only came there to start an edit war. I also want to note I and Ragnimo have also run into problems where I reported him for edit warring. [104] Beware of this user's dishonesty. Ayaltimo (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rosguill If consensus was the way forward why was Magherbin aggressive in making changes and not consulting nicely with other users? For example, on the fourth of May, he could've contacted us why he wants to make a change but he didn't address anything despite being in dispute. [105] He then decided to revert again and I explicitly told him to seek consensus before removing sourced content. [106] He left the page alone because he knew he was being hypocritical. Mind you this is the exact same reason why he got banned just recently when you slide to the next history page who he was in dispute with. [107] If anything this is more concerning. He decided to make changes on Walashma ruler pages after he was with an edit war with another user because he was salty. All this happened within the 10th of March. [108] and I decided to revert them back because he was making changes to year old pages. I thought he would improve after coming back from his ban but I was wrong. He did not care and reverted back without even consulting. [109] [110] [111] [112] [113] [114] [115] [116] I left it alone because I was smart not to get in trouble with him and use this as evidence. The reason why I made new changes for Ifat Sultanate was because Magherbin made similar aggressive new changes on Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi article and he was already in dispute with three users over there. [117] [118] I could've reverted it and asked him to explain on the talk page but I wanted to take things slow and carefully because I was discussing with him on other pages. Also, the idea I proposed was far better because I thought it would end all conflicts. He was trying to push his own view and I accepted it because the demographics are disputed by various scholars so it's better to explain both sides instead of pushing one POV. The idea was not about getting the consensus of reliable sources. He argued they contained original research and I told him three times to state which source contains original research and he would avoid answering it. [119] Nevertheless the big elephant in the room is how is he still edit warring and making aggressive changes in other articles when he just recently came back from a ban for the same reason? That should be the most concerning topic relating to Magherbin. However, I can agree with your conditions and agree with Magherbin to make a self-revert on Ifat Sultanate page if he makes a self-revert on Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi page to make it fair and we can discuss in good faith from there. Ayaltimo (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Magherbin
[edit]Statement by Magherbin
[edit]An Admin had suggested I report this user on the platform [120] and the user beat me to it apparently. Ayaltimo has trouble citing sources and even uses WP:Circular. I notified noticeboards as the editor began editwarring, and multiple editors expressed their concerns that the source failed reliability. [121] [122] Other users got involved and reverted their edits [123] After this, Ayaltimo added new content on the same article which contained original research, synth and other issues, I reverted these edits and I explained to the user on the talk page about BRD, the user reverted. [124] Ayaltimo fails to follow the BRD process and instead editwarrs to maintain these problematic edits that I express concern about on the talk pages. The user doesnt know how to handle a content dispute and turns it into a battleground. This is a recurring problem, the last time an admin had to intervene when the user kept insisting on consensus after removing content that was on the page for years. [125]. We are also in an RFC due to a dispute and the user clearly holds fringe views thats i've been trying to tackle on these pages and Ayaltimo has been a road block, see rfc [126]. Ayaltimo in their report is discussing content dispute on an enforcement page, I believe this is a competence issue when including the inability to properly source. Ayaltimo surprisingly seems to have admitted to the problem on the board.[127] Ragnimo the other user who had similar problematic edits like Ayaltimo is now blocked for socking [128] and Ayaltimo may be continuing disruption on their behalf.
User:Rosguill, on point one, there's another source attached to the statement which Ayaltimo ignored which states "From the northern Somali coast, the Adare (Harar) cultural synthesis occurred and spread into the Chercher - Harar plateau" see.p.53 [129]. Adare is another name for the Harari as stated on the articles page "The Harari were previously known as "Adere", although this term is now considered derogatory.". The article doesnt even state they settled in Somali territory as claimed by Ayaltimo anyway. The second point of contention is the statement that "Hararis were among administrators of Ifat", the source clearly states that Hararis were among the leading principality of ifat with other groups, see p.288 [130]. I have no issues with altering the wording so that it can go more in line with the source however Ayaltimo has not provided any solution. Ayaltimo wants the statement removed completely and has even implied on the talk page that Harar/Hararis have nothing to do with Ifat Sultanate, they say here "Sa'ad ad-Din II was born in Zeila and was headquartered in Zeila. He was the last Sultan of the Ifat Sultanate. He had nothing to do with Harar". On point three p. 155 states; ""During their huge expansion in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the Oromo occupied a territory as far as Hargaysa and the lower Juba and had assimilated its inhabitants of Hadiya-Sidama and Harala-Harari stock" [131]. The user stated the statements in the article were fringe and said they would take it to the board but did not do so. Overall the user has a POV that only Somalis ever lived in modern Somali territory. Magherbin (talk) 02:42, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Rosguill, some google book previews are regionally locked it depends on location, I can see the text on my end and thats what it states. Responding to your point about page numbers not being cited, at the time of citing, google books didnt reveal the page number. There's also issues with searching keywords at times on google books hence why some results dont appear. Anyways Ayaltimo is suggesting I follow BRD on the Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi article when clearly the user didnt even oppose any of my edits there. This is why I was correct in the fact that the user is turning wikipedia into WP:BATTLE. Ayaltimo was instead removing the dispute tag I placed after the now blocked sock ragnimo reverted my edits. [132] I was following BRD and discussing on the talk page unlike Ayaltimo. Magherbin (talk) 05:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
[edit]Result concerning Magherbin
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- The sanction is at WP:ARBHORN and Magherbin was notified in diff on 11 December 2020. Re the first point concerning Harari people, Rosguill reverted your changes diff. Admins are not in a position to evaluate content disputes. Perhaps Rosguill missed your point but the situation is that Talk:Harari people is not showing any further discussion since that revert in March so evidence about that issue is not useful here. You would need to show a discussion where consensus disagreed with Magherbin. I have not yet examined the remaining evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 10:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Having reviewed most of the evidence in this report, I see some concerning behavior on both sides. Regarding Magherbin, the examples 2, 3 and 4 provided by Ayaltimo are somewhat concerning, and I'd like to see Magherbin respond to these specific concerns. However, the examples of edit warring provided by Ayaltimo raise more concerns about Ayaltimo's behavior than they do Magherbin's; in the provided examples, Magherbin appears to generally make singular objections to new changes. While in some cases Magherbin reverted against such changes more times than appropriate, unlike for Ayaltimo I don't see any examples where they are re-introducing a new change after it was already objected to, the cardinal sin of edit warring. I'm also unimpressed by Ayaltimo's "brilliant idea", as it basically suggests creating POV-forks within the same page. This is not an appropriate way to resolve most content disputes, we need to strive to present the consensus of reliable sources. Based on my assessment, I think that a medium-length topic ban for Ayaltimo is likely necessary unless they can clearly communicate here that they understand when reverting is appropriate (in which case a warning could suffice). I'll reserve judgment regarding Magherbin until I see a direct response to the concerns I highlighted at the beginning of this comment. signed, Rosguill talk 22:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Magherbin, I can't verify the claim regarding 1 because the preview won't show me that page. Regarding the second point,
I'm not sure thathaving looked up "principality" in the dictionary, I realize my reading was wrong and see no problems with Magherbin's interpretation. Regarding the final point, it looks like the claim checks out, and this ordeal in itself can serve as a lesson for why page numbers aren't optional in book citations. signed, Rosguill talk 02:57, 17 May 2021 (UTC) edited 02:59, 17 May 2021 (UTC)The population of the leading principality of Yifat included some of these Cushitic-speaking nomadic groups such as...the Harari
backs the claim that the Harare were administrators, my reading is that this says that they lived in the capital - Ayaltimo, ah I see now with regard to Adal Sultanate, Magherbin was in the wrong to revert on May 4th, (Special:Diff/1021447630), I had previously thought that to be unrelated to the prior reverts on April 27th. My impression from seeing all of these disputes between you two is that they follow a pattern: one of you makes a change, the other contests it, you briefly discuss on the talk page, neither of you agrees with the other, and then the matter gets dropped, only to get revived with another revert several weeks later. In a situation like, this, the way to actually resolve the content dispute is to either head to WP:DRN or call an WP:RFC to get additional editors to weigh in and help form a consensus. I'm wondering if a formally logged warning will be enough for both Ayaltimo and Magherbin to learn this lesson. signed, Rosguill talk 03:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Magherbin, I can't verify the claim regarding 1 because the preview won't show me that page. Regarding the second point,