On Tuesday I posted Get Satisfaction, Or Else. The post detailed how we felt Get Satisfaction misled our customers into thinking the Get Satisfaction site was an official place to get 37signals customer service and support. The post brought out passionate responses on both sides of the issue.
First, credit is due to Get Satisfaction (“GS” from now on) for taking this situation seriously. They’ve quickly acknowledged some of the issues that we brought up, and they’ve begun to make some changes.
Some of the changes they’ve made are detailed in their two subsequent blog posts (“kissing and making up” and “an open letter to Jason Fried”). We appreciate those efforts. Just a reminder though… This isn’t about me or 37signals – it’s about our customers and every company’s customers that are confused by an unofficial Get Satisfaction page.
We hope more changes are on the way. Deeper, comprehensive changes that go beyond a few adjustments on the surface. We understand deeper changes take time. Their early response give us hope that they’ll continue to make the changes necessary to remove all potential customer confusion.
Why we care about the customer experience
I thought I would use this opportunity to talk about what customer experience means to us and why we’re upset about this GS situation.
A customer experience is the sum total of a bunch of small experiences. Logos, words, brand names, copywriting, interface design, functionality, trust, expectations, suggestions, follow-throughs. All of these things point somewhere. In the case of the GS pages, they point to an official place to get answers, report problems, share ideas, and get “Customer Service & Support” from the company in question.
The problem is that GS pages look, act, read, and feel official. And for some companies they are. GS is a useful tool for companies that choose to use it. But check out the difference between a page for a company that chooses to use GS and a page for a company that has no idea what GS is. Tiny tiny differences I bet 9 out of 10 of people hitting that page would never notice.
A small disclaimer in 9px text in the top right, and a single mention of “Unofficial” near the top of the page don’t go nearly far enough to make this absolutely, without-a-doubt-clear that this is not a company-supported or official place to get help. You should be smacked in the head with either “This is official!” or “This is not official. The real official place is over here…” Big, bold, colorful, impossible to miss. It should be the clearest thing on the page, and people should be reminded of it often (like right after they post a question).
Is Get Satisfaction a slogan? A company?
Remember that most people who hit a GS page don’t know who GS is. They didn’t search for Get Satisfaction, they searched for a company or product name to get customer service or support. A customer recognizes our company name on the page, but they don’t know who GS is. Is GS even a company? Or is it a tag line? “37signals: Get Satisfaction” on a support page seems like a reasonable interpretation. If GS is going to host pages for 14,000+ companies, the burden of absolute clarity is on them.
So when GS puts up a page unknown to us that uses our logos, our brand, and our product names, and then combines it with phrases such as “Customer Service” and “Customer Support”, I get upset. And when I see customers who’ve been misled to think this is an official place to get support (because of the names and logos and wording), I get upset. And when I see our customers that have asked questions with the clear expectation of getting an official answer, I get really upset. None of our customers should be confused by a third-party using our names, brands, etc. Period.
How our customers could be confused
Let’s look at this from a customer’s perspective. Let’s assume they hit the 37signals Get Satisfaction page from a Google search. Different combinations of searches for “37signals” and “customer service” or “support” bring Get Satisfaction’s page as high as #3.
So here they are.
The red boxes are mentions of “37signals” and the blue boxes are mentions of “Get Satisfaction.” On my screen it’s 8 to 2 in favor of 37signals mentions. I don’t know if that’s for SEO purpose or for another reason, but I do know that every additional mention of 37signals reinforces the expectation that this is “the official place” to get a question answered by 37signals. Why else would the company name be everywhere?
The first thing I might see on this page is this:
A bold “Ask a question about 37signals and their products” headline with a big text field below it. That’s an invitation to begin interacting with this page. “I had a question and now they are asking me to enter it.” Again, this feels like “the official place” to get that question answered.
Or maybe it’s not a question… Maybe it’s a problem I’m having. There’s a tab with a red alert icon that says “Report a problem.” If I’m the customer I’m thinking “When I report this problem the company will be notified of it.” Except that’s not what happens. But they don’t know that. There’s no mention of that anywhere. Not before or after they report the problem.
So I start entering my problem and then I’m asked to select the product I’m having a problem with. How do I pick the product? I see 3 product logos. Sure looks official to me. Logos reinforce the mental connection with official.
Then, right before I’m done posting it, they say:
The page says “We’ve estimated the likelihood of your problem getting noticed”. We? Oh, “we” must be 37signals. Who else would “we” be? 37signals is the company I pay every month to use Basecamp and their name is plastered all over this page. And their products are listed right here too.
And then I spot… “the likelihood of your problem getting noticed.” You mean 37signals may ignore my problem? “What the hell?” is what would be going through my head as a customer. The bad experiences compound: First, the fear they may be ignored, and second, the reality that they will.
Wait…What is this site? Is this for real? Let me click the “About” link and see.
“We aim for the software sweet spot: Elegant, thoughtful products that do just what you need and nothing you don’t” – yup, that’s 37signals. This is the company.
So the customer asks the question or reports the problem and nothing happens. The bad experience blossoms and gets worse every day it’s left untouched. And then other customers who stumble onto this page see it and notice that questions aren’t getting answered. And it snowballs. Soon it becomes a big sore spot – invisible to the company, but bright red for customers. This is bad.
See what I mean?
Hopefully this scenario helps you understand why we’re bothered by GS’s general model and execution. It’s confusing. I can imagine a dozen other scenarios where people could land on this page, see our name over and over, recognize our logos, see options to ask questions and report problems, and expect to get official resolution.
Thanks for listening
These issues don’t just affect 37signals, they potentially affect thousands of other companies. We’re lucky – we’ve discovered our GS page. But think about the hundreds (thousands?) of other companies that have yet to discover they have an unofficial GS page. Questions are piling up, customer expectations are being broken, and trust is at risk. Thanks for listening.
Dan Levengood
on 02 Apr 09A lot of thought, on GS’s end, went into building out the logic, design and functionality of their site and business model.
Every step along the way, adds a level of confusion towards the overall user experience. Jason points out many of this items in this post.
We can argue all day if their intent was deceitful or not. That’s really besides the point.
What I believe cannot be disputed, however, is that GS had to know all along that a day like Tuesday would come.
Somebody would call them out. Someone would have a HUGE problem with what they were doing and the means in which they were doing it. And when that day happened, they would be in some serious trouble.
For GS to continue to say that this isn’t the fact reeks of arrogance.
dan
Adam
on 02 Apr 09Jason – when did you realize GS was hosting support Q/A for your products? Last week or has this been building?
Adam
on 02 Apr 09I’m curious if anyone can find something more specific than Google’s webmaster guidelines that would give cause for an appropriate correction of GS’s pagerank.
Mike Rundle
on 02 Apr 09Wow.
I had no idea Get Satisfaction worked like this. From the point of view of a company who’s brand has been hijacked it really looks bad.
They don’t separate the user experience at all between “official” (read: paid) and “unofficial” (read: unpaid or unknown) versions. If I were someone hitting this page I’d for sure think “we” meant 37signals and not some nebulous entity.
The changes that GS needs to make are deep and are NOT just user interface issues. If I were them I’d be rethinking the entire site and the entire business model, especially with 50,000 RSS readers seeing this entry and millions more in the weeks to come.
SH
on 02 Apr 09“Jason – when did you realize GS was hosting support Q/A for your products? Last week or has this been building?”
@Adam, we’ve known for about a year. We found out because a very, very angry customer posted in a comment on our blog about our lack of reply to his inquiries. Now, we know as a company that years ago, we didn’t offer the same support we offer now. But I also know that I reply to EVERY email for support we receive, and I’ve done so for 2 years now. Two months ago, we hired Michael as our second support person, so we can reply with even more timely and more informative emails.
We scoured our records and found no trace of his email. I had our system administrator manually search our incoming mail logs and found nothing. Finally, the customer himself pointed me to the GS page he had created to ask 37signals a question. I was dumbfounded. Angry. Extremely, beyond belief, upset by this.
Customer support is my job, and I take it very seriously, and I am very, very good at it. To have another website undermine that job which leads to a customer with 1) a bad experience, 2) a bad impression of our company, 3) a bad impression of my work…well, it’s infuriating. Not only was I angry on the customer’s behalf, I was angry on behalf of our company to see our name and logo plastered all over a site we had never known about until then. (After that, there were two identical incidents over the past year.)
So that’s how we found out. Our frustration isn’t new, and it’s not unfounded. It’s based purely on the bad experiences GS has caused for our customers, and the harm it’s caused our brand. I’ve been friends with GS’s co-founder Lane Becker for years, and I don’t think he has sour intentions at all. But I do think perhaps as a company, GS is blinded to the harm their site can cause other companies.
Chris
on 02 Apr 09This all was hashed out earlier in the week, so this post doesn’t really change the situation much. Personally, I think the reaction by the GS staff speaks volumes of the type of company they are. Hopefully their actions will back up the words they’ve spoken.
Tom
on 02 Apr 09I’m still confused about the timing of this and would like a reasonable explanation… The page in question has been up for months now, why call them out so publicly on it, did you try an email and that failed? Why do it so angrily and so publicly?
And re “GS puts up a page unknown to us” : Can you please explain why this person with the username JF was doing a pretty official sounding job of answering questions on GS 10 MONTHS AGO?
http://getsatisfaction.com/people/jf
J
on 02 Apr 09You’ve done an amazing job presenting your side of the story; I’m still unsatisfied with GS’ response. It seems like they are being smug and hoping people will just stop noticing them.
They should ADMIT that: 1) They are doing all this for the benefit of their own SEO and pocketbook and 2) They should drastically rethink ways they can add value to the company’s on their site, and not steal it from them.
They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and we all see through their flimsy “apologies”. It’s crystal clear that they have been trying to steal the cookies. They need to admit it and move on.
Robert Gaal
on 02 Apr 09When I read stuff about “GS harming other companies”, I get a little angry myself. Without GS we couldn’t have helped our customers in the way we do now. It adds so much to our company and the way we talk to customers, I love it.
I get what these post on SvN are trying to say, but think of taking it down a notch. You’re showing disrespect to a service that holds many of the principals you evangelize very high, and has even in some ways taken them to extreme new positive levels.
Charly
on 02 Apr 09Bad, Bad,Bad! I hope they will apply the changes for every single Company listed there.
Jackson Fox
on 02 Apr 09I admit, I’m a big fan of Get Satisfaction, but I think this the result for over optimizing for one usage scenario, creating problems for another.
The recent re-design of GS reduced the GS branding by quite a bit, in large part (I assume) because most support pages are company supported. This makes GS more of a hosted service provider than a community site. This is to the benefit of both GS and the companies who use GS.
However, this causes problems for the community/unsupported side of GS, since it exacerbates Jason’s concerns about branding.
It seems like creating two layouts: one for official pages and one for unofficial pages would go a long ways towards resolving the brand tension Jason has (rightly, though a bit dramatically) criticized.
Daniel
on 02 Apr 09I wonder why GS is doing this. I suppose they’re not getting enough real customers, so it’s pure SEO. Especially since you weren’t notified (I assume) when the 37s page on GS was created.
That’s pretty much coporate identity theft.
I think you handled the situation well. It could have turned against you if interpreted as “37signals attacks well-meaning support site!” But it’s just shady SEO tatics.
I read the comments from the GS people for the last post, and while it did seem like they were nice enough and commited to doing the right thing, it doens’t change the fact that they royally F’ed up by even creating a page in your name.
You might say “Never attribute to malice, what can just as easily be attributed to stupidity” but in this case, I think “malice” is the right term to use. It was a conscious decision on their part to create a page bearing the 37signals logo, to not inform you of its creation, to demand a fee to not show competitors’ ads, and to phrase the language of the page as they did.
Adam
on 02 Apr 09@Tom: “why call them out so publicly on it, did you try an email and that failed? Why do it so angrily and so publicly?”
This is such a weak claim, that pointing out things on blogs rather than keeping them private is somehow wrong.
A) If you, as a company, are doing something that is arguably wrong, underhanded, etc., it is entirely fair game to be called out on that in public. The best analogy I can come up with at the moment is, it’s like being angry at whistle blowers for going public instead of solely trying to resolve the issue inside the company. Tobacco, Enron, etc.
B) Doing stuff in public - and getting the momentum of other people behind you - gets things done a lot faster than being pissed in private does. It’s also a lot more transparent, which is a part of what the web is all about.
We all open up criticism of ourselves from anybody and everybody through blog comments, it’s totally natural to do the same through blog posts.
Mike Rundle
on 02 Apr 09I just can’t get over how much they de-badge the page to look more official. There’s hardly a Get Satisfaction logo/name on it… it’s totally marketed to look as official as possible, on both paid and unpaid accounts. Hell, is there even a difference on the paid support pages?
In the previous entry the GS folks came back saying things were oversights or simple copywriting mistakes, but the things pointed out here absolutely cannot be simple oversights. The people that work at GS are smart. If they deliberately de-badged these support pages to remove GS branding then they did it on purpose as a conscious decision to look more official and to come up higher in search queries. That’s not an oversight. That’s a decision that was made.
I don’t see how the people that run GS can come back in here and saying they made more mistakes. One mistake… one copywriting issue… that I can understand. But all of this is pointing more and more to a deliberate business effort to appear as official as possible even when these are unofficial, unpaid support pages. Why make it look so official? So companies see people posting and not getting any responses and are basically forced to come in and start using the system, eventually paying for a GS account to get ahold of the situation.
So, again, if folks from GS come back in here and say these are all just mistakes, just oversights, and don’t own up to them making these decisions deliberately then I’ll lose the respect for GS that I have left. If things were done on purpose then man up an say so, say it was done to appear higher in search engines. Why keep saying these are all oversights? I don’t get it.
Jesse Gardner
on 02 Apr 09I’m a huge 37signals fan, but your response to this seems out of proportion. I understand getting upset about customers feel ignored, but all Get Satisfaction is doing is providing them a place to converse.
You guys care a great deal about customer service; I know because I’m a customer of yours. But not every company cares so deeply. Get Satisfaction is giving people a place to get together and discuss problems and solutions with a company. In fact, I think being a third party actually helps ensure fairness—that the conversation isn’t going to be colored in favor of the company.
You guys have killer customer service, so this doesn’t apply to you now; but what if you guys turn into a bunch of jerks? Suddenly Get Satisfaction would the best thing that could happen for your customer.
I see Get Satisfaction as a liaison for customers. If your company is already providing killer customer service, great. (And yes, I think GS could do more to send people to the official channels.) But trying to get them to change their model because you’d rather have people using the official support channel seems to be missing the point of Get Satisfaction: letting customers converse about companies—with (hopefully) or without their collaboration.
Thor Muller
on 02 Apr 09Very clear feedback, which we’re grateful for and will take to the drawing board. And yes, we are as serious as can be about removing all confusion. As we’re in the midst of significant design effort, we will see changes continue to hit the site regularly. It should be no surprise that we welcome public feedback about it as it happens.
My apologies again.
burtBrumme
on 02 Apr 09Ya, GS is crossing the line and confusing people almost certainly on purpose. Either that or they’re incredibly thoughtless as to the effect their site has. Still, an email to them complaining might have been a more appropriate first step. You’ve worked hard to build this blog into a very important tool in your business. No reason to mess with that just ‘cause you need to vent. Go yell at an intern like everybody else.
Scott Semple
on 02 Apr 09@JF: I think you’re completely justified. The extent to which GS (or whoever) went to create the GS 37signals page is shocking. The intent was obviously to fool customers and to create the impression that it was official. Don’t they have logs of exactly who created these pages? I suspect that a lawyer would confirm that you have grounds for action if so inclined.
@SH: Although you may be friends with Lane Becker, I think Mr. Becker still owes you a huge, detailed, revealing explanation and apology. Someone obviously put a lot of thought into making the GS 37S page look authentic. They either did it themselves, don’t have enough control over who can create pages and/or don’t have a clear method of authenticating pages with the actual companies who are represented.
OTHER: Just a thought, but is it worth placing a yellow, in-app notice at the top of each 37S app (a la new product feature or maintenance announcements) to make sure all customers know about this? In addition, a post or bubble during the sign up process would notify any new customers as well.
Scott
on 02 Apr 09It seems the honorable thing to do by GS would be to let companies opt out and turn over the “help requests” to that company.
A system of turnover developed properly could be a selling point down the road for companies that use their service now.
Walt
on 02 Apr 09Let’s be clear here on one important point:
If GS asked a company who did not have a support forum “do you mind if we set one up for you on our site?” then their whole set of actions would be fine if the vendor agreed.
On the other hand, if GS sets up a support forum for a company’s product without their prior permission, branding it with the vendor’s logos and tag lines, they are hijacking the company’s support channels. For profit. Period. End of discussion.
37signals – I hope you nail their ass to the wall. This could happen to anyone, and if fact already has.
Chris Carter
on 02 Apr 09Customer support is a differentiator for 37signals, not their product. It’s something they care deeply about, and it shows.
Customer support is Get Satisfactions’s business. It is that before anything else. Despite the words the emit on the web, and the minor changes they make, their first goal is to promote their business (same with 37signals).
This is showing. When I look at the GS page, I see a 37signals design and no inclination that this is not associated with 37signals. Sure, it says unofficial, but there are many “unofficial” sites which companies participate in. The deliberate attempts to brand the page as 37signals and not GS (as the comments about the redesign attest), cloud the visitor’s perception. Other than a badge and the word “unofficial”, I see no declaration of ownership by GS, but a whole lot of inferred ownership by 37signals.
Argue all you want about how awesome the GS guys are, this is akin to the people who set up “Information Booths” in Hawaii and then try to sell timeshares. Sure, they’ll hand out maps of Waikiki, but their real business is extracting money from you.
I like the intention of Get Satisfaction, but regardless of intention, creating support sites for companies that don’t opt-in and branding these sites like the companies is underhanded and unethical.
Paul Leader
on 02 Apr 09Reading about all of this, and looking around GS, I have to (mostly) agree with Jason.
GS’s approach is very typical of many “Web 2.0”, “New Economy” (in quotes because I think both terms are nonsense) companies that seem to have extraordinary levels of self-belief that theirs is the one true way* and what they are doing is self-evidently a work of genius and everyone should use their product.
The way I see it, there are two honest use cases for GS
1) The official portal
Company X doesn’t want to build a support infrastructure, so pays GS to provide one, this is no different to using Salesforce, or hosting your company blog on Blogger. You make it official, use the logos, etc. People go there expecting an answer, they get one. That’s great, any company that helps companies give better customer service gets a thumbs up from me.
2) The unofficial site
Customers of company X are pissed off and get no or poor support from company X. In this case someone creates a clearly unofficial GS page for that company where X’s customers can help each other, and generally bitch about X’s customer service. You don’t use the companies logos, PR, or anything else, and you make it very clear that this is unofficial.
Case 2 is not new, there have always been sites where people got together and bitched about crap customer services, and helped each other out. But it is always very clear that this is not the real Vodaphone/Microsoft/CompanyX site.
@Robert Gaal – presumably you are happy to use GS for use case 1, that’s great that you get benefit from it. For the two use cases above, GS is a great idea, the problem is that for case 2 they don’t behave responsibly. Their attitude is the very arrogant “You either use us, or you don’t think much of customer service”, there is no middle ground.
For an example of the problems this causes check out the 37s page on GS, it is full of people who really think they are posting a question to an official site, and are expecting an answer. They will be very disappointed, and will blame 37s.
If GS made the two use cases totally distinct, then I think the problem would just evaporate. I don’t think Jason could complain if people were getting mutual support and just generally bitching about 37s on GS, so long as they understood that it had no connection with 37s. Looking at the 37s page on GS clearly shows that this is not the case.
That is the problem.
Paul
- * – I’m aware that 37s comes across as arrogant from time to time, but I read most of their stuff as “this is the way we do it, and it works great for us”, rather than “though shalt do it our way”, which is my problem with GS.
Colin
on 02 Apr 09@paul leader just explained the critical issue here more clearly than I can, but I’ll just add a bit on GS’s intentionality: very clearly, on the “how it works” page for customers (http://getsatisfaction.com/home/customers) GS says that “Ask” means “Let the company know what your question, idea, problem or praise is.” Unless GS is actually forwarding this information to a company, this is false.
I don’t doubt that GS are good people and want to do good things while growing their business. But during the current “ongoing redesign of key components of the system” it’s clear that they’re shading their wording, design, presentation and marketing to encourage users to believe that GS is something that it might not really be.
Getsatisfaction.com is awesome
on 02 Apr 09GS does look official, only its not.
Its a lame lazy money making effort.
If they want to be SEO addicts and gets hits to what is basically just a forum, they need to do so legally and ETHICALLY.
The changes GS made are pitiful and minor. They need to comprehensively overhaul the site so that NOONE would think they are an official support site for ANYONE.
GS: I think your business model is extortion and it sucks. Your business is based on a premise that is NOT GENUINELY interested in helping consumers or the public. Its just about making a quick and easy buck for you and you offer NOTHING in return to the public. Do everyone a favor and try something else.
Gerard Byrne
on 02 Apr 09GS’s site is well executed but it is certainly carefully crafted to usurp through subtle branding the support services of the organisations ‘hosted’.
The design is disingenuous – if the site were clearly branded GS, I would regard their actions/proposition as ‘honest’.
Any organisation which did not respond negatively to GSs magpie tactics and which allowed (either through action or inaction) its customer communication to be ‘outsourced’ in this way deserves the long-term damage and loss of control which will undoubtedly result.
Zach Leatherman
on 02 Apr 09Clearly, as has been said, this is an opt-in/opt-out problem.
A company should have to ask “Do I want to use Get Satisfaction?” and not “Is Get Satisfaction using me?”
Dan Quellhorst
on 02 Apr 09You forgot to put a red box on the Page Title where they try to SEO your company name in Google.
Scott
on 02 Apr 09Just so you guys know, I like GS but I definitely support you in your decision and the past two entrees in your blog. If It wasn’t for these posts, GS wouldn’t know they needed to change.
They are in the business of improving companies, well its about time they actually improve them selves.
Kevin Hazard
on 02 Apr 09As a support evangelist of a large company that apparently has its own Get Satisfaction page, my initial response is very similar to @SH’s … I’m not necessarily opposed to what Get Satisfaction is doing, as it’s important to empower customers to get the service they deserve, but when “Get Satisfaction” doesn’t actually “Give Satisfaction,” it’s not helping GS nor the company in question.
I thought it was kinda funny to see GS’s responses on the last blog … especially the ones asking people to come to their webcast hosted on a different site. It was almost like they would have preferred the ability to append their information to a third-party site’s content so they can direct feedback where they want it. The sweet smell of irony.
David
on 02 Apr 09It seems that GS’s advertising-supported “community” sites are beginning to poison their customer-supported, outsourced customer support sites. They’re trying to have it both ways.
If you as a company WANT to hire them to host your customer support site, that seems like it could be a good value. As Jason said, customer support is a big undertaking, and GS might be a good way to handle it. I would guess that a large measure of GS’s good will is based on how well this side of their business works.
But these “community” sites, running on what I imagine is the same codebase as the paid offerings, are, with this episode, generating a lot of bad will for GS, and actually run counter to the purpose of the paid offering.
When XYZ company wants the GS site, it serves everyone concerned—GS, and XYZ and its customers. When the company doesn’t want it, as in 37S’s case, it harms both the client company and its customers, and benefits only GS, in the form of pageviews and ad revenues. The ad-supported-free vs. ad-free-paid model works for some sites, but in GS’s case they conflict.
GS, what kind of business do you want to be? Do you sell a customer support platform and services, or do you sell pageviews?
Ranga
on 02 Apr 09Thank you for raising this.
Dennis Eusebio
on 02 Apr 09Why would a company base a business off signing up companies automatically without their permission?
Bob Monsour
on 02 Apr 09For what it’s worth, I wanted to share what I wrote as a comment to Thor at GS in response to his open letter to Jason. Regards, -Bob
Thor,Extracting from your letter to Jason, “After starting it, we noticed that everyone we talked to was frustrated with customer service with big companies. We hypothesized that the companies that needed open, honest customer interaction the most were those that were least likely to embrace it in a programmatic way. So we launched Get Satisfaction not only for companies to set up their own customer communities, but also to let customers start a community space around any brand they liked–to give them the same kind of soap box for results that you have with your blog, Signal vs Noise.”
This part makes some sense. What I’m then having trouble with is the implication of the first paragraph of text that appears on the GS home page, which reads as follows:
“Welcome to the place where questions really are frequently asked. Get Satisfaction brings customers and company employees together to make things better for everyone. Great answers and ideas can come from anywhere; we just do our part to get them to the people who can do something about it.”
Can you honestly say that this does not strongly imply that the support is provided by the company’s employees?
I really don’t think you guys really understand the nature of copy writing and the importance of clarity in what you write for the web.
I hope you find this helpful and while I wish you the best of luck, my personal advice to you would be to segment your site into two very distinct parts: (1) where companies are using your service as a platform for them to provide service (which I hope you charge for), and (2) the user-generated forum-type area where customers of a company can help each other. I would further advise you to make the mode of operation painfully clear on both.
Regards, -Bob
Phil Wise
on 02 Apr 09I don’t understand why this isn’t illegal. Isn’t this exactly what trademark law is all about: stopping consumers being confused between the real owner of a brand and others?
You’re rich, sue their asses off already!
Jackson Fox
on 02 Apr 09The level of rancor here is really frustrating.
As many have now pointed out, GS has two businesses: 1. Official support pages 2. Community support pages
Designing for the first has caused problems for the second. GS seems to be acknowledging this both in comments here and in their own blog posts.
Are both of these businesses valid? Yes.
I hardly see how GS should be expected to change their business model just because 37s doesn’t like it. Do they need to figure out how to more effectively execute this business model? Hell yes. They should much more clearly label community pages as community pages, something they did tolerably well in their last site design.
Maybe I’m a terrible designer, but I’ve made mistakes just like this. I’ve fixed one problem, only to create another. I acknowledged the problem, and fixed it. GS seems like they’ve acknowledged the problem, and they want to fix it. If you look through the ideas posted to the GS support forum (on GS of course) in the last 24hrs, you’ll notice lots of positive ideas about how to better execute both of GS’s business models. Heck, I just went and posted one myself about making unofficial pages look more, well, unofficial.
J
on 02 Apr 09Maybe I’m a terrible designer, but I’ve made mistakes just like this. I’ve fixed one problem, only to create another. I acknowledged the problem, and fixed it.
Your mistakes haven’t affected hundreds of thousands of other brands. That’s a key difference.
Sam
on 02 Apr 09Doesn’t everyone see what’s really happening here?
37Signals is going to release a new product, a web-based support system, that competes with GS.
They are doing a little strategic erosion on their biggest competitor. Putting a seed of mistrust in GS’s current client base. Creating a reason to “do customer support right.”
Jason continues to show his true colors.
Signed,
A competitor of 37S (just kidding)
Ray
on 02 Apr 09Isn’t GS violating trademark and copyright rules? Isn’t that alone grounds to ask them to stop?
David Minton
on 02 Apr 09While I am not a lawyer (I don’t even play one on TV), this seems to be a clear cut case of trademark/copyright infringement. It is my understandings that the key test of trademark/copyright infringement is the “likelihood of confusion,” in this case on the part of 37signals’ customers.
Based on the posts, it seems this is the case in practice, as well as in theory. And, since the infringement has been publicly acknowledged, doesn’t 37signals need to defend their marks?
Pablo
on 02 Apr 09Can’t you take legal actions on this issue? it seems (after reading the blog post linked by Sarah) that they are really doing harm to you and to other companies.
And my second (rhetorical) question:
What would have happened if, instead of being said on a very popular blog, this issue would have been sent via mail by some other (less famous) company?
kevinn
on 02 Apr 09When I skimmed my RSS feed about this whole GS thing.
That sole screenshot of the GS page with the usual 37Signals products made me think “37signals is using GS for support?”
Confusing indeed.
Richard
on 02 Apr 09Jason, The big question that you are not answering is your decision to vent your totally valid and well explained frustrations on your blog rather than directly first.
I think thats what is getting you negative responses from your own customers and supporters of 37s. The fact that you have known about the problems for a while and Sarah even knows the company founder seems odd.
Please explain your strategy rather than just your motive.
Derek
on 02 Apr 09Damnit 37Signals readers. Get back over on GS thread and take up for 37S!
Greg
on 02 Apr 09Apart from the use of logos, the thing that strikes me as wrong about the unofficial pages is the use of the word Customer. I can’t see how how GS can offer “Customer Support” or “Customer Service” to people who aren’t their customers. Unofficial support community would make clearer.
I also applaud Jason for airing this in public instead of trying to sort it out directly. If he had done that, chances are GS would have responded and taken down the 37s page, and the rest of us would have been none the wiser. This way we all get to check if our companies brand is suffering in the same way.
Derek K. Miller
on 02 Apr 09Let’s not forgot what really got Jason’s dander up: (1) pissed-off customers who thought they were being ignored, and (2) the sentence on the Get Satisfaction website saying that “37signals has not yet committed to an open conversation about its products and services.”
In those two things, Get Satisfaction already launched this controversy on the public web, and basically insulted 37signals to its face. Jason is entirely entitled to respond on a public forum as well, and this website is as appropriate a place as any.
The strategy, therefore, is presumably to have Get Satisfaction eliminate the confusion as soon as possible. I think the tactic of calling them out and returning the insult, while aggressive, is probably the fastest way to achieve that result. I suspect Get Satisfaction’s design and coding team have more fire under their butts to fix things than they would have if they’d received a simple cease and desist letter.
Walt
on 02 Apr 09I have to say that airing this out in a high profile public blog was absolutely the right way to go.
I bet there’s a whole bunch of companies checking GS right now to make sure their support channel hasn’t been hijacked as well.
Web 2.0 sleaze indeed.
Anonymous coward
on 02 Apr 09I would like to see the GS pageviews right now…
Andy Davies
on 02 Apr 09I don’t agree with you, anyone who looks at those pages can see they start with the title “Unofficial Customer Support Community for 37signals”
I’ve used GS on and off for a while an never been confused – they even state how many employees of a company participate in the forum etc.
I
@ Andy
on 02 Apr 09It only says ““Unofficial Customer Support Community for 37signals” as of yesterday after Jason posted about this. It used to say simply “Customer Support Community for 37signals.” Misleading to say the least…
Kyle
on 02 Apr 09personally, the most offensive part is having your product/brand/co. associated with such a terribly designed page(at least from a visual perspective). there’s so much happening on that page, with so little visual hierarchy, i can’t believe company’s pay to be associated with it. ugh.
Weixi Yen
on 02 Apr 09heh, I don’t understand why people care if this was publicly posted on a blog or a private email. I think the blog post worked out better because it forced GS to act quicker.
The main problem won’t be that people are tricked by Get Satisfaction, but the fact that some people may prefer to use Get Satisfaction over the regular 37signals support, especially if GS gets bigger. GS could build a brand so strong that customers would demand companies to use it because they like the UI and the way communication is handled. IMO that’s the real problem for 37s, not that people are getting tricked.
As a consumer, the idea of a centralized customer support web site for all companies is a great idea. The fact that companies would refuse to use GS makes it more frustrating as a customer. Thus it is important for GS to maintain credibility, and it seems they are working hard at it, which is very encouraging.
@37s, if your customers wanted support through GS in the future, would you use GS? Why or why not?
dwillett
on 02 Apr 09I think you give an accurate description of the user experience and I personally feel, even without a company to be providing support for, that the tactics GS is using are getting under my skin.
GS tries to bait users that are searching for a customer support outlet for any and every company they want. They do this through a very clear blurring of the level of involvement of the company.
It would be so easy for them to present a strong division between the concept of “official and company-sanctioned” and “unofficial and unmonitored”. It would be even easier to clarify their wording to not negatively insinuate that a company is ignorant to their user’s concerns.
The deep part of the problem IMO is that they said they do not want to be seen as a complaint forum, but that is all the unofficial company pages can really be if they lack the presence of a company representative to receive the user concerns and provide progress or valuable feedback.
anon
on 02 Apr 09Lawsuit or it didn’t happen.
Cody
on 02 Apr 09Look, you’ve proven without a doubt that this is very confusing to a customer and GS is using your logos and name all over the page. Why are you posting about this instead of suing them? Isn’t that the point of having a trademark/copyright? To prevent another company from confusing your customers and costing you time and money?
ben
on 02 Apr 09All the idiots complaining about a public mauling need to think about what GS’s business is. Discussing of companies issues in the open. They have to be able to eat their own dogfood, and it shouldn’t have to be on their site.
Jonathan
on 02 Apr 09I’ve just re-read this whole fracas, and it seems to me that the main point of disagreement between those who side with 37Signals and Get Satisfaction isn’t anything substantive, but the initial tone of Jason’s complaint.
Yet, in every response that has sided with GS—including GS itself—they acknowledge that all these substantive issues are completely valid criticism.
So why are we so concerned with the tone of Jason’s initial post? Sure, he could have phrased things more diplomatically, but obviously he felt strongly about the issues he presented and how they affect himself and his company. Why are we allowing these emotional overtones to colour our judgement of substantive and objective issues of design?
It’s deeply disconcerting that many readers here are allowing their emotional connection between these parties override what should be an objective debate about serious issues of brand identity and customer relations. Granted, the initial foray wasn’t exactly professional, but being provocative is what brings people into the debate in the first place: that shouldn’t mean we leave OUR professional candour at the door.
prakster
on 02 Apr 09Cody (post above me) is exactly right!
Jason, please do us all a favor and sue Get Satisfaction for Copyright and/or Trademark infringement.
Or hopefully a good law firm will file a class action lawsuit.
These a**holes have no right to take your name / logo / brand and put it up on their site without your explicit written permission.
Nick
on 03 Apr 09Scott is absolutely correct above in suggesting that companies should, at the very least, be able to opt out. On emusic.com, when you search for artists that they don’t carry music for, they display a helpful message explaining why. Example:
Due to events outside of our control, we no longer carry the Rolling Stones catalogue on eMusic. We are sorry to see it go, but hope to get them back in the future. Thanks for your understanding. Check out these great titles instead!
There are several companies that GS adds value to, but in this case 37s should have the right to opt out.
willybobo
on 03 Apr 09I dunno… I can definitely understand why 37Signals would be upset, but only in the same way that I understand why Home Depot is upset when people create sites like HomeDepotSucks.com. Companies can’t really control their brands anymore. People re-appropriate them for good, evil, or otherwise. Basic Cluetrain stuff…
Is Get Satisfaction complicit in a brand hijack? Maybe. Does that make them evil? I don’t think so. I think Get Satisfaction is in the business of helping of people help each other. I really don’t see any evidence that they’ve intended malice or to mislead people. I do think it can be confusing to people who Google into a GS page and assume it’s an official company page, but I think there are lots of things happening in the world that confuse people about brands.
In my experience, it’s a much better world when we give people the benefit of the doubt. When our default assumption is that people act in good faith. Doesn’t mean people don’t mess up, but seeing the mistake and overcoming it is easier if you don’t get caught up taking offense at people’s motives.
From what I can see, Get Satisfaction is trying to build some infrastructure that makes it easier for ordinary customers to contribute to improving a company’s products, services, and customer experience. That’s not an easy thing to do, and they have made and will again make mistakes. For our own benefit, let’s not get into making up our own back stories about why they make those mistakes and what their intentions are. Let’s assume their intentions are good, and hold them accountable to those by pointing out when we think they’ve messed up and what we think they should do about it. And let’s leave it at that.
Bryce
on 03 Apr 09The page wasn’t unknown to 37s 10 months ago. 37s knew about it one year ago, as Sarah said. But when they found out about it, it was an unknown page causing irate customers for 37s. GS didn’t send 37s an email stating there was a page for them.
And GS is still unknown to lots of other companies who have pages on GS. If they don’t google for it they won’t find out. I think this is part of the point Jason is trying to make. Unless they research it they won’t find out. 37s did, but they should’nt have had to.
Web Tom
on 03 Apr 09Get Satisfaction should stop creating support pages for companies that HAVE NOT SIGNED UP.
That is the end of the problem and the ONLY WAY TO GO.
37 Signals isn’t creating Basecamp accounts for companies that have not signed up, is it?
Get Satisfaction business models is very similar to Yelp = Extortion 2.0
willybobo
on 03 Apr 09I don’t think Get Satisfaction creates support pages for companies that haven’t signed up. Internet users create those pages. GS provides infrastructure for those internet users to do that. There isn’t someone at the company doing it. Holding GS solely accountable seems to me a lot like holding Six Apart accountable if someone creates a blog about how much they hate Microsoft, or blaming a hosting company when someone registers HomeDepotSucks.com.
Nick Lo
on 03 Apr 09Clearly the point here is that if you wanted to use GS services then you’d also prefer less of their branding and more of yours. If you hadn’t asked for it then you’d want the opposite.
I’m too lazy/busy to investigate whether their business approach is to offer the less GS branded version to paying customers, but that would seem to be an obvious way to encourage buy-in.
Either way, this hasn’t painted them in a good light, but I’m still surprised no-one else has echoed Tom’s comment above about the mysterious JF character whose official sounding reply 10 months ago adds a Scooby Doo “and I’d have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those pesky kids!” element. Or, is it in fact Tom who is the double agent working for GS and JF is a put-up job? Is there any truth to the allegations that it was in fact Jason who was sleeping with Marilyn Monroe, etc? Where does the intrigue end?
Clearly the public need answers!
Steph Thirion
on 03 Apr 09Great post. I never took the time to analize what was that about – all companies being in GS – I assumed they were all official relationships. The whole site design screams that idea. So thanks for clearing that up. And the walkthrough is great. That ‘about’ page is simply unbelievable.
I think the whole concept of building an alternate unofficial support site inside a website whose service is giving an infrastructure for official support, is intentionally misleading right at the start. Could they really have such great intentions if they decided to mix those two separate things?
Steph Thirion
on 03 Apr 09An extra note: I just got started using UserVoice for my product and I have to say – for those needing this kind of service – it’s a nicely built, straightforward alternative to GS.
Tim
on 03 Apr 09Agreed 100%. They are definitely playing dirty, and their response like “oops were terribly sorry and had no idea our redesigned site conveyed that idea” is such b.s. Im going to make sure my company support page at GS links back to the official support, and everyone else who has a company support site should too.
dm
on 03 Apr 09Take it for what it’s worth, what irks a craftsman the most is that GS is tightly designed for what it is trying to achieve. There are feedback loops everywhere.
It needs to appear official to attract customer complaints. Customers complaints are the proof that GS needs to establish itself as a channel for customer support to the companies themselves (ie. the people who pay).
If the customer thinks it’s unofficial, the customer keeps searching and doesn’t register their complaint.
The rate a company meter on the right is to show that customers are showing up at GS. It counts everyone who clicks it as a member of the “community”. 17 complaints aren’t interesting to a company. 17 complaints + 800 community members sounds like a lot even if the customer only answered a survey.
Mixing unofficial and official support juices GS google rankings for both.
Should an employee participate in an official capacity, it legitimizes the forum, attracting more customers.
The other thing is that the wording on GS implies that they (someone) is looking for the solution to your problem. It says so on the front page for customers. “Ask: Let the company know”, promises a reponse “Respond: Timely responses come from other employees and other customers” (which can’t actually be promised in an unofficial capacity), and then promises satisfaction, “Get Satisfaction”.
I’m not saying it’s all intentional. But the crux of the problem is that it’d be easy enough for a GS employee to post the question in an official forum and get satisfaction for the customer. But UNsatisfied customers (and lots of them) is what encourages companies to participate on GS.
At some level I’m inferring Jason wants to either help them fix the problem or thinks fighting on behalf of the other 1000s of companies is very important. He could have easily asked GS to remove the page. And I suspect, GS would love to do so. But until he asks, they look bad if they do. Hopefully this will lead to changes and everyone will get better satisfaction.
postscript: I did notice they removed the 37signals logos on the 37signals GS page. But not for anyone else. The bottom line remains. GS needs to look official to grow their business. The key to the long term is satisfied customers. The key to the short-term in attracting companies is UNsatisfied customers. It’s really easy enough to fix. Remove the logos and add a very large point sentence what Get Satisfaction is and how it is in no way associated with the official company.
dm
on 03 Apr 09... but that would tank the growth and there you have the rub.
The most egregious element is that the design encourages customers to complain AND to wait around for an answer promising satisfaction which will (likely) never arrive.
I should clarify the postscript. If you are a GS customer (a subscriber of their services), satisfied end-user customers are the key. If you’re NOT a GS customer, UNsatisfied customers are the key to getting companies to become a GS customer.
It’s not necessarily malicious. Just the underlying dynamic.
dm
on 03 Apr 09re: SEO.
Starts with the title bars and goes all the way down the page. Title bars say “Customer Service and support for XXXX”, the unofficial ones say “Unofficial customer service and support for XXXX”. Google generally looks for positive, not negative matches. it will ignore unofficial.
The product names on the page help the SEO. Same with the tag cloud. They are in fact the most likely things that customers with problems are searching for.
The similarity of the unofficial and official pages represent the best tunings for the search terms for support. Google’s going to ignore the word unofficial.
GS is well designed. When smart people appear to be doing dumb things look for alternative goals.
neha
on 03 Apr 09I think Jason you should have your own communitized ideas population instance. you can try these ruby based forums which you can buy and customize according to your own needs. 1. http://yousuggest.us (latest release) 2. http://crowdsound.com 3. http://ideascale.com … then there is salesforce also….but they r expensive.
cheers, neha
neha
on 03 Apr 09there are these two also: www.latticepurple.com & www.uservoice.com
André
on 03 Apr 09@Walt: Agreed. I also see this as serious copyright infringement.
The fact that you guys devote two blog posts with detailed analysis shows that your response is anything but “out of proportion.”
Brad
on 03 Apr 09From Groundbreaking to Arrogant Bullies?, a ridiculously brilliant editorial on this here kerfuffle.
Mike
on 03 Apr 09I think GS should wait and see what changes their users want. The most important ones will come back and float to the top. I learned that from the 37Signals book, and I think it’s true.
The GS badge – very unfortunate but it’s been changed. Move on everyone :)
Einar
on 03 Apr 09Maybe it was just me, but the first thing I noticed in the screenshot example you used was “Unofficial Customer Support Community for..”
I realize I’m probably more savvy than the average user, but to me it is pretty clear that this is a 3rd party service.
I think the GS team has responded well to your public outcry for change. Give them kudos and let’s all move on.
troll
on 03 Apr 09@Elinar: average users are pretty stupid. That’s why they love Basecamp.
JC
on 03 Apr 09@willybobo
“I don’t think Get Satisfaction creates support pages for companies that haven’t signed up. Internet users create those pages.”
That argument had been stated several times and seems incorrect. Look at a couple of examples where it appears that their communication director, Amy, is starting the pages:
Bank of New Zealand
Self Bank Mobile
Mike
on 03 Apr 09This is really bizarre. I just did a search for my own company and found our company logo and 2 people claiming to be part of “my company team” with a thread started by Amy Muller from GS.
This feels like extortion.
Val
on 03 Apr 09Trademark infringement is a violation of the exclusive rights attaching to a trademark without the authorization of the trademark owner or any licensees (provided that such authorization was within the scope of the license). Infringement may occur when one party, the “infringer”, uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services which the registration covers.
GS mastered the “confusingly similar” part. For 14,000 companies. Without authorization. And claim they didn’t notice. And then some people accuse Jason of trying to censor public speech using public speech about facts which are a click away.
Oh my god, really? The whole thing is hilarious. Can we debate about legalizing murder next?
Justin D
on 03 Apr 09Agree with Jason 110%.
There’s an awfully simple solution that would go a long way to resolving the core problems cited.
Use Yammer’s model.
To get your company onto Yammer, you need to confirm back and forth via an e-mail address that uses the company’s domain name for their web presence.
Done and done. No more rogue GS pages. Company wants to use GS? Awesome, go ahead. Company does not? Then the GS page never gets created.
mikemike
on 03 Apr 09Too late for them. Look what I did: http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfaction/topics/do_this2
Anonymous Coward
on 03 Apr 0937S fanboys look like such a bunch of lovely people…
Mark
on 04 Apr 09I’ve always had the feeling that Get Satisfaction was on the scammy/confusing side, and so never followed through with using them as a support service. Glad someone with the clout of 37s has called them out on this shady identity highjacking.
I’ve been using Zendesk instead, and this has been a nearly flawless process, save for a few minor language glitches like “Submit Query” (almost no one in the English-speaking world uses the word “Query” when they mean request/question) for the submit button title, and some confusing user-side email language. Overall, a great system (which, by the way, also offers a nice 3rd-party Highrise user-lookup widget)
Brian
on 04 Apr 09They are definitely on the scammy side of things, if the fact that their communications director has created over 15,000 pages on their site is any indication:
Brian
on 04 Apr 09They are definitely on the scammy side of things, if the fact that their communications director has created over 15,000 pages on their site is any indication.
Check getsatisfaction dot com slash people slash amy
Joe
on 04 Apr 09Great post Jason. GS is all about rating a company and their products and offer little to no value in customer care to all but the lazy companies not willing to create a customer care site of their own. Even their poster-boy Zappos has little activity of any kind and certainly no help content or community expertise provided.
Good job calling a spade a spade.
dan posnack
on 04 Apr 09I understand the reason people are upset by this GS site, however I personally think usability issues aside it goes a long way to demonstrating what 37signals is missing, yes missing. I know hard to believe. I use basecamp, it’s not perfect. Due to the lack of concern demonstrated by not just one contact with 37signals over the years with different companies, I basically have given up contacting 37signals and just find a way to work with what ever it is that comes up. So a site like this, at least goes in the direction of offering to provide some sort of minimal assistance. What I would take from this if I can go against the all mighty 37signals (smile), is it sort of says there is enough of an audience and user base of your product that is looking for a better option then help forums…
Joe
on 04 Apr 09@dan. You must be pretty hard up to have to refer to GS site for support. Are you saying you think 37signals support is that bad that you have to turn to a source with little content or community expertise?
Rob
on 05 Apr 09Jason, I think you should let this go now.
Ewen
on 05 Apr 09Get Satisfaction are pretty good at this FUD stuff.
Dodgy: I still can’t find any clear indication of the limitations of their ‘freemium’ account. So, if I want to participate it looks like I’d have to part with $100/month sometime on the near future if I want to use it properly. Compare this to the openness at UserVoice.
Dodgy: Where is the button I click on as an administrator if I want to delete my company from their database and their pages. Oh, nowhere. I have to search your forum and find that I need to email them like it is some kind of special edge-case.
Dodgy: looks like they won’t remove your company anyway if some well-meaning poor sod actually thought they found your support site & made a comment. “If there are no conversations by customers in your company section, I can probably help remove your company listing from our site. If, however, there are conversations from customers, I am not able to remove them, as that would also entail removing our users’ content, which is something we expressly avoid.” at http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfaction/topics/remove_my_company
SeeLooks like extortion, smells like extortion.
I have requested my account & company be deleted. If they are not then I will add a little SEO value of my own to this debate. That’s not extortion – that’s a promise.
Dana Whittle
on 06 Apr 09So happy to see this article; now I don’t feel like a complete idiot for NOT GETTING AT ALL what Get Satisfaction is supposed to be… I had the immediate reaction after using this “service” that the product I just bought and had problems with would NOT be supported… the company (I won’t name them) basically used GS to replace real support – not GS’ fault, but hey, it LOOKS like they are official when that is where you end up on clicking Help.
I can appreciate the concept of gathering helpful information but I’m not impressed with how it is currently delivered. My opinoin : the “tone” of GS’ site is nearly condescending, kind of smart-ass and totally turned me off. Of course that’s just me; but I’d be willing to bet that I’m pretty average in my expectations…
Tom
on 06 Apr 09Wow, what a cynical site. Everything about it calculated to get as close as possible to felony extortion without crossing the line.
A brilliant business model, if you’re a sociopath.
They’re lucky they live in San Francisco. In New Jersey this would be handled by beating them within an inch of their life.
Tom
on 06 Apr 09I hope anyone out there who knows a smart class action lawyer is forwarding this to them.
These people need to be sued, big and hard.
Tom
on 06 Apr 09Actually, the California legislature needs to make it a misdemeanor, punishable by escalating fines, for doing business in a way that a reasonable person might incorrectly conclude that you were the agent of a business you had no relationship with.
They have invented a crime; the law stopping it just hasn’t been passed yet.
Ewen
on 07 Apr 09Compare these 2 Twitter accounts http://twitter.com/getsatisfaction http://twitter.com/UserVoiceHQ
Now, which one engages the customers in conversation and which one is just a spammy SEO hijack?
Seriously, it stinks like a ‘code smell’.
I complained to Get Satisfaction & did get a reasonable answer back. It will be interesting to see the leopard does change its spots or if they’re just spinning me PR fluff.
This discussion is closed.