Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Posted Jan 28, 2014 20:56 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)In reply to: Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft by Del-
Parent article: Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Actually, there is not. Smartphones this year outnumbered all other computers, except for microcontrollers.
>Well Android is pretty stripped down, with only a custom Java engine to run the apps.
:facepalm:
And gcc is only a translator from C++ to machine code. And Linux is merely a wrapper over hardware-provided services. And Google is simply an indexer.
>The choice of using apache was maded specifically because HTC and the rest wanted to use an open core model from my recollection.
Nope. Android was designed this way to allow carriers to lock down phones, and total avoidance of GPL was a pre-emptive step to avoid being forced to support GPLv2 forks indefinitely.
>Well Android is pretty stripped down, with only a custom Java engine to run the apps. The choice of using apache was maded specifically because HTC and the rest wanted to use an open core model from my recollection.
Google uses Coreboot which is GPLv2 on Chromebooks. JFYI. Lots of Android devices use U-Boot which is, you guessed it, GPLv2.
> Let me help your memory. BSD used to have *drums*, a BSD licensed compiler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C_Compiler
No they didn't. The first attempts to use PCC to compile FreeBSD were made in 2007 or so. It has never been used in anger, unlike Clang.
> and you know why, don't you? Does the name Elop ring any bell with you, at all? Did you have the pleasure of using the N9?
So there's no phone with GPLv3 software out there. Even the new Jolla phone does NOT have GPLv3 anywhere, though they have quite a lot of GPL and LGPL software on it.
> A part from that GPLv3 has made success in network routers, Linksys (yes that was Cisco, do they count as large you think?) even marketed it. Any NAS box these days come with Samba, does Hewlett Packard count as large in your book by any chance?
Again, it's either isolated or used in non-core parts. Or in situation where GPLv3 has no bite at all.
So yes, it only reinforces my point: GPLv3 failed miserably.
Posted Jan 28, 2014 22:13 UTC (Tue)
by Del- (guest, #72641)
[Link] (8 responses)
GCC is a compiler collection, it can do much more than Java.
> Android was designed this way to allow carriers to lock down phones, and total avoidance of GPL was a pre-emptive step to avoid being forced to support GPLv2 forks indefinitely.
Sloppy again are we. There is plenty of GPL code in Android as I am sure you know. You mean version 3 I guess. You may or may not be right. Like already mentioned, Android avoids GPL in user space due to it's open core model.
> So there's no phone with GPLv3 software out there. Even the new Jolla phone does NOT have GPLv3 anywhere, though they have quite a lot of GPL and LGPL software on it.
Actually I do believe you will find GPLv3 software on N9, basically from the Debian stuff. But you are right when it comes to Jolla not shipping GPLv3 in shipping images, here I found the documentation for you:
> Again, it's either isolated or used in non-core parts. Or in situation where GPLv3 has no bite at all.
You were flat out wrong, and are back-paddling desperately. May I suggest that you just admit it, GPLv3 is not that big of a deal on devices. Sure, there are manufacturers that want to lock-down devices, and they will probably avoid Grub. That's no biggie, Uboot serves them fine.
Just listened to Langley's talk, and it makes me depressed.
Posted Jan 28, 2014 22:33 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
>However, GPLv3 software is easily available in abundance on Sailfish, Meego and Android.
>On a related note, Jolla does ship glibc, did you know that?
> You were flat out wrong, and are back-paddling desperately.
>May I suggest that you just admit it, GPLv3 is not that big of a deal on devices.
>Sure, there are manufacturers that want to lock-down devices
Posted Jan 28, 2014 22:49 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Posted Jan 28, 2014 23:12 UTC (Tue)
by Del- (guest, #72641)
[Link] (4 responses)
I believe linux is still GPL, and it is a part of Android.
> Sure. They don't limit third-party software, so they can't care less.
They provided it in repos themselves I believe.
But now I am afraid I have to call it a day..
Posted Jan 29, 2014 1:14 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (3 responses)
Ah yes, apart from Linux itself, of course. But Linux is an exception somewhat - it has a non-existent GPL enforcement and it's also firmly in GPLv2 only camp.
However, there _are_ Android implementations that do not even use Linux - Blackberry runs their own Android simulator atop QNX.
> They provided it in repos themselves I believe.
Posted Jan 29, 2014 3:08 UTC (Wed)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (1 responses)
Not true. netfilter is enforced by its copyright holder, and several other kernel copyright holders have thrown their lot in with the SFLC. I'd guess that the only piece of GPLed software with *more* license enforcement than the Linux kernel is busybox.
Posted Jan 29, 2014 3:16 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Jan 29, 2014 6:55 UTC (Wed)
by Del- (guest, #72641)
[Link]
Down to semantics are we. U-boot not being part of the image you mean? What are you trying to prove, that what Google forked and made themselves in user space on Android was permissively licensed? We agreed on that already. Just forgot, Uboot is GPLv2+ so available under GPLv2, but also available under GPLv3. A tiny fact you jumped over earlier in this thread.
> Links?
Dig yourself, I cannot fathom that detail making any difference for you at all.
Posted Jan 29, 2014 12:04 UTC (Wed)
by jani (subscriber, #74547)
[Link]
Nokia did not ship GPLv3 software on the N9.
Posted Jan 20, 2015 17:38 UTC (Tue)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link] (4 responses)
>> A part from that GPLv3 has made success in network routers, Linksys (yes that was Cisco, do they count as large you think?) even marketed it. Any NAS box these days come with Samba, does Hewlett Packard count as large in your book by any chance?
So let me get this straight. You're saying that in a NAS box, Samba - the GPLv3+ SMB1/2/3 implementation that ALLOWS THE BOX TO FUNCTION AND IS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE PRODUCT is a 'non-core part'.
Hmmmm. I think you might want to look at the lifeboats. The argument is desperately listing and taking on water at an alarming rate :-).
Posted Jan 20, 2015 17:41 UTC (Tue)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link]
Please accept my apologies :-).
Posted Jan 20, 2015 20:56 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Your core part is something that you differentiate on from your competitors. For SAN the most interesting part is their core storage management which is far out of reach of GPLv3.
For end-user NAS boxes companies usually have no differentiating features at all (except the components price that you can get from your Chinese suppliers). So the vendors don't mind putting GPLv3 on them.
Posted Jan 21, 2015 16:09 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Jan 21, 2015 17:32 UTC (Wed)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link]
Nope. That's your code *competency*, which is a business/management term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_competency.
The usual engineering interpretation of the term is very different, and more in line with the FEMA definition: https://www.fema.gov/core-capabilities. Basically a core "part" is something you *require* to achieve a goal, not something that distinguishes you from the rest.
At least that's how I see it.
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Architecture#GNU_utilities
Nokia on the other hand was big enough to make a difference, and Microsoft made sure that never happened. I would say Microsoft did a bargain when they got Nokia on board with an exclusive deal, worth every billion. However, GPLv3 software is easily available in abundance on Sailfish, Meego and Android. On a related note, Jolla does ship glibc, did you know that?
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
There is _no_ GPL (of any version) in Android images and even no LGPL anymore. Android tools certainly use it.
Sure. They don't limit third-party software, so they can't care less.
Which is LGPLv2.1
Nope.
It IS a big deal on devices. So big that big vendors essentially forked the entire FSF stack to avoid it.
Again, another understatement like "the waves were higher than normal during the tsunami in Japan".
LGPL is most certainly there: KHTML^H^H^H^HWebkit^H^H^H^HBlink^H^H^H^Hwhat-the-name-if-this-thing-today still includes few LGPL-licensed files. But all the new development there uses BSD (not Apache, BTW, but BSD) thus it's pretty limited and constrained.
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Links?
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
> Again, it's either isolated or used in non-core parts. Or in situation where GPLv3 has no bite at all.
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft
Stallman on GCC, LLVM, and copyleft