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"I forgot to run LILO"

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 10, 2010 11:44 UTC (Fri) by stevem (subscriber, #1512)
In reply to: "I forgot to run LILO" by dlang
Parent article: Getting grubby with ZFS

ACK. lilo is simple and so has simple failure modes - it's easy to get things right repeatably.

Grub 1 broke too many times for me; when I looked at the source to try and fix a bug I was so scared that I deleted the source and switched back to lilo for all my systems.

Grub 2 is slightly better, but still *far* too complex for my liking.

There are now new maintainers for lilo, so I'm hopeful for continuing maintenance. Otherwise, extlinux looks like a good simple replacement.


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"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 10, 2010 12:27 UTC (Fri) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (8 responses)

> Otherwise, extlinux looks like a good simple replacement.

Ever tried Gujin (at sourceforge)?
Either the full blown interface you get when installing the whole package, or the new "boot the newest vmlinuz/initrd you found in /boot and do not ask any question" mode?
In short, to test, install the precompiled package associated with your distribution, and reboot: you are running the main Gujin bootloader.
Once rebooted, desinstall the package, it restores the previous bootloader automatically.
To test the new "do not ask any question mode" (and if you only have a single Linux distribution on your PC), before uninstalling the package, type on a terminal as root:
/sbin/gujin -t tinyext4.bin /boot/minigujin.ebios
and reboot, it will loads Linux without any question.
To remove that new simplified mode, just type as root:
/sbin/gujin --remove /boot/minigujin.ebios
That will bring you back to the previous bootloader, i.e. full Gujin interface, that you can remove if you want to by uninstalling the package.

Gujin do not work if your kernels are on a LVM slice, and it only recognises few filesystems, but ext*fs, vfat or iso9660 are fine.

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 11, 2010 9:03 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (7 responses)

how does it deal with complex environements (lots of drives, multiple partitions with installs on them, etc)

this is where grub falls down and the simplicity of lilo makes it still usable.

lilo may not be simple to setup in such a situation, but it's simple enough that it's failures are simple and so you can fairly easily work your way through the issues to get a working system. With Grub it's hard enough to figure out what grub is really having problems with (what's it trying to do exactly??) that the result is (on a complex configuration) it crosses over to the unusable category.

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 13, 2010 13:10 UTC (Mon) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (4 responses)

I would say, it depends what you call lots of drives.
Things like 4 to 8 drives (whatever their BIOS numbers, i.e. IDE or USB) would be treated without problems.
The compiled-in limit are 10 IDE interfaces, 15 disks, 64 partitions per disks (including extended partitions, i.e. 34 useable).
The real limit is that the number of "ways to boot", i.e. kernels and DOS/windows MBRs should be lower than 60, but it is true that if you want to analyse the max number of filesystems to search for all possible kernels and initrd, it will start slowly.

There is for instance no problem having Fedora, Ubuntu and debian distributions in both 32 and 64 bits installed on the same PC (i.e. 6 distributions in 6+ different partitions), plus kind of 10-20 iso images of live CD distributions.
One problem with other bootloaders is that when you boot from a USB key, some PC shift all BIOS drives numbers, so that number cannot be safely written in a static configuration file.

For instance, if you have a distribution on a USB disk, distribution containing it own /boot/gujin.cmd to supply its own command line to its own kernel, you can boot your PC with or without this disk connected; Gujin will automatically recognise that way to boot and display a line in the menu.
It doesn't matter if Gujin came from the hard disks or the USB disk.

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 15, 2010 4:44 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

my home server has 3 SCSI drives,2 SATA drives, and 12 IDE drives, at work I've had single systems with up to 46 drives visible to the OS (16-18 drives is fairly common in a 3u chassis)

your description of the many-OS system can still be done with very few drives

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 15, 2010 10:39 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (2 responses)

> my home server has ...

Well, the 15 disks limit was done because it is said that some BIOS would have a problem - and BIOS disk 0x90 was the same as BIOS disk 0x80...
But as long as your vmlinuz/initrd pair is located in one of the first 15 disks Gujin should still work.
Moreover, I assume that you start your system with some disk in "power on standby mode" - or else you have a massive power supply; those disks will not contain the /boot partition.
Gujin has been tested with disks in "power on standby mode".
With such a system, if your main MBR is corrupted and you try to boot from a USB key, and that key is mapped by the BIOS as disk 0x80 (shifting all other disks numbers by one), your preconfigured mapping in either Grub or LILO will be wrong (trying to load from the wrong disk).
Increasing the default number of disk supported in Gujin is a single "#define NB_DISK" change, maybe I'll increase the default.

> your description of the many-OS system can still be done with very few drives

One drive is enough, but the complexity to manage the six Grub configurations in six partitions is a nightmare...

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 15, 2010 19:53 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

actually no, my boot disk is one of the SCSI drives, which the system puts out at drive /dev/sdo (or thereabouts).

the IDE drives are connected to 3-ware raid cards (but not using the raid features of the cards), not directly to the motherboard.

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 20, 2010 13:58 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Most controllers which permit the attachment of >3 disks also have a mode (often the default), whereby the controller powers up the drives in sequence, not simultaneously (but still powers them all up in POST, rather than having some strange mode where it powers only some of them up until receiving a request from software to power up the rest).

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 13, 2010 15:26 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

... partitions on RAID arrays...

Not being able to boot off LVM might be annoying, as LILO can boot off LVM as long as it's not also RAIDed, but not being able to boot off any live RAID-1 partition would be a killer.

(disclaimer: horrible flu so have not even looked at gujin, preferring to randomly pontificate: this *is* the internet).

"I forgot to run LILO"

Posted Dec 15, 2010 10:45 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link]

Well, you can boot RAID-1 if the partition type is not set to "linux raid auto" - but I bet that is not the answer you want.
Dectecting RAID would not be difficult - after all Gujin already open filesystems inside ISO/FAT/Ext*fs filesystem images, just time needed to code and test - patch welcomed.


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