Talk:Tommy Cooper

"Just like that"/recorded video

If you watch clips on YouTube of Tommy, you'll hear him say "Just like that" on quite a few of them, so surely that means they've been recorded? 90.212.187.30 (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Messing up tricks

I read that the idea of messing up the tricks came form his first public performance in which he completely mucked up due to nerves. can someone confirm? -- Tarquin 13:21, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That's the way I heard it. I'm sure there must be some biographies somewhere that will confirm it. - Lee M 13:27, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Negative view

Upon reading Tommy's Wikipedia entry I was struck by the fact that the comedian who I have always believed to be the funniest man of all time was actually not the nicest person to know. Notably his supposed treatment of Billy Mayo. Still I'm sure my view wouldn't bother him too much. And as he said himself many times as he came out of his 'Disappearing Box' on stage, "Christ It's dark in there " !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kent Pete (talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised too: but I don't know whether to trust any of it. The whole sections on drinking, mistreating his wife and meanness contain no citations at all. Can anyone help here?--Robbie251 (talk) 11:47, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There was a program on (I think) UK Channel 4 which featured members of his family and which basically made the same claims. That, of course, still doesn't mean that its true, but it seems likely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.198.33.252 (talk) 12:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody's perfect! 223.24.56.208 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:11, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Tim Vine

What are these commonly mis-attributed quotes doing here? Surely a section on Tommy Cooper shouldnt have one-liners from another comic?

Couldnt these be in the form of a link to the Tim Vine section?

If they're not even attributed to Cooper then they're not worth repeating. I'm surprised that even needs to be said. Send 'em over to Wikiquote. And for god's sake, credit them to the right person. A quotation, by definition, ceases to be a quotation if no one actually said it. -- Krash 16:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

In the film "Anything Else", Woody Allen tells the joke "I went to the doctor and told him, 'My arm hurts whenever I do that', and he said, 'Well, don't do that then.'", and attributes it to a comedian I hadn't heard of before; I don't remember the name, but it wasn't Tommy Cooper, or I would have remembered. 84.198.246.199 (talk) 06:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed material

Very few - if any - of the following lines attributed to Cooper are actually his. Most are from a modern English stand-up, Tim Vine, whose one-liner style is very similar to Cooper's. Still, they're worth repeating...

1. Two aerials meet on a roof - fall in love - get married. The ceremony was rubbish but the reception was brilliant.
2. Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it."
3. "Doc, I can't stop singing "The green green grass of home"." "That sounds like Tom Jones Syndrome." "Is it common?" "It's not unusual."
4. A guy walks into the psychiatrist wearing only clingfilm for shorts. The shrink says, "Well, I can clearly see you're nuts."
5. A man takes his Rottweiler to the vet. "My dog's cross-eyed, is there anything you can do for him?" "Well," says the vet, "let's have a look at him." So he picks the dog up and examines his eyes, then checks his teeth. Finally, he says "I'm going to have to put him down." "What? Because he's cross-eyed?" "No, because he's really heavy"
6. Guy goes into the doctor's. "Doc, I've got a cricket ball stuck up my backside." "How's that?" "Don't you start"
7. "Doctor, I can't pronounce my F's, T's and H's." "Well you can't say fairer than that then"
8. Two elephants walk off a cliff...... boom boom!
9. What do you call a fish with no eyes? A fsh.
10. So I went to the dentist. He said "Say "Aaah"." I said "Why?" He said "My dog's died.'"
11. So I got home, and the phone was ringing. I picked it up, and said "Who's speaking please?" And a voice said "You are."
12. So I rang up my local swimming baths. I said "Is that the local swimming baths?" He said "It depends where you're calling from."
13. So I rang up a local building firm, I said "I wanna skip outside my house." He said "I'm not stopping you."
14. So I was in my car, and I was driving along, and my boss rang up, and he said "You've been promoted." And I swerved. And then he rang up a second time and said "You've been promoted again." And I swerved again. He rang up a third time and said "You're managing director." And I went into a tree. And a policeman came up and said "What happened to you?" And I said "I careered off the road."
15. Now, most dentist's chairs go up and down, don't they? The one I was in went back and forwards. I thought 'This is unusual'. And the dentist said to me "Mr Cooper, get out of the filing cabinet.'
16. So I was getting into my car, and this bloke says to me "Can you give me a lift?" I said "Sure, you look great, the world's your oyster, go for it."
17. Two cannibals eating a clown. One says to the other "Does this taste funny to you?"
18. Police arrested two kids yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.
19. You know, somebody actually complimented me on my driving today. They left a little note on the windscreen, it said 'Parking Fine.'
20. Tommy Cooper was in a taxi and when he got to the end of his journey and paid his fare, the cabby sat there waiting for his tip. Tommy gave him a tea bag and said, "Have a drink on me."
21. A man walked into the doctor's, The doctor said "I haven't seen you in a long time." The man replied "I know, I've been ill"
22. A man walked into the doctor's, he said "I've hurt my arm in several places." The doctor said "Well don't go there any more."
23. I had a ploughman's lunch the other day. He wasn't very happy.
24. You know those mange-tout? They're really nice, but I couldn't eat a whole one.
25. My dog was barking at everyone the other day. Still, what can you expect from a cross-breed?
26. I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn't find any.
27. I bought some HP sauce the other day. It's costing me 6p a month for the next 2 years.
28. I went to the butcher's the other day and I bet him 50 quid that he couldn't reach the meat off the top shelf. And he said, "No, the steaks are too high." This unsigned comment was left by User:Krash
    

HaHa, some of those are quite funny, RIP Tommy...Zanusi 19:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

British seems to be the best description of Cooper's nationality as he had ties to both Wales and England. Although he was born in Wales and had one Welsh-born parent his family moved away to England when he was three and he spent most of his performing career based in other parts of the UK, notably London. His mother was from the West Country and his west country accent was part of his persona. So definitely a mixture.

I have checked Wiki-style guidance and the like and there is no simple rule for determining UK nationality issues - attempts to define such rules seem to have foundered on lack of consensus. It therefore comes down to balancing up the factors that apply in any particular case. I hope this is what I've done.

I'm noting all this here because there is an anonymous user who seems to be trying to remove the terms "British" and "United Kingdom" from a lot of articles for POV-related reasons. This article seems to be one of those affected. The culprit often uses phrases such as "as per consesus" in edit summaries - which is a bluff as there simply is no such consensus. Circusandmagicfan 18:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Source now added. "Circusandmagicfan" forcefully depopulated the English Magicians category without any consensus or any attempt to discuss the matter, which is against Wikipolicy. Upon trying to then push to remove the category, a consensus was met that the English, Scottish & Welsh descriptions were better - no bluff here. If anyone is POV pushing, it is "Circusandmagicfan".

172.142.42.42 17:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No. The outcome was to keep the English, Scottish and Welsh categories for use where appropriate - there was no consensus that people have to be sub-divided firmly into English, Scottish and Welsh. Indeed to call the outcome "consensus" is stretching the term - there was frankly very little participation in that debate. Furthermore the question in that case related to sub-categories within the field of magic. The overall question of a general policy for Wikipedia as a whole remains unresolved. An attempt to create Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(United_Kingdom-related_articles) failed through lack of consensus.

For other recent debate on this subject it is worth looking at Talk:United_Kingdom/Archive_11#Nationality. I would say that if there is any consensus at the moment it is reflected there. In some cases the identity of an individual is rooted in more than one of the constituent countries of the UK and the description British is more appropriate (as I would argue it is for Tommy Cooper). Furthermore, on passports there is no such thing as formal English, Scottish or Welsh nationality - the nationality section in a passport will say "British Citizen".

I deeply resent the way that the anonymous poster above has described my actions in a past dispute. I concede that at the time I was naive because I was new to Wikipedia and I did not understand the correct protocol concerning categories. I followed the advice in WP:BOLD. It is simply a lie to say I made no attempt to discuss the matter - I made concerted attempts to discuss it (for example through long, reasoned posts on the talk page for WikiProject Magic). The difficulty is that the individual who opposed me rarely posted anything in reply except for blunt instructions and did not seem interested in any debate. It does seem to be an individual with a definite agenda but it is difficult to say more because (as above) this person hides behind anonymous IP addresses (see also other people's observations at Talk:United_Kingdom/Archive_11#Nationality).

Circusandmagicfan 20:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

I've just discovered that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) currently states: "There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries". Apparently there was extensive discussion about the question back in October/November 2007, but no clear resolution.

(I was unaware of this until after the debate was closed and archived so I was unable to participate - had I been aware I would have agreed with the line that "British" is a reasonable default unless there is an uncontested view that either "English", "Scottish" or "Welsh" is obviously more applicable).

As far as I can see it remains a matter for debate on a case by case basis. In this case the matter is not uncontested. There are sources that support both the designations "British" and "Welsh" (and possibly even some evidence that he is claimed by people in the West County of England as one of them). In such circumstances the default nationality of "British" seems to apply.Circusandmagicfan (talk) 18:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Anglo-Welsh

I still prefer this as it removes the need for a 'roots' sentence. Rothorpe (talk) 15:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd compromise on Anglo-Welsh if others support that. It feels a bit clumsy and it's not a term I've seen used widely but I suppose it is at least technically accurate. My objections are against the various anonymous and arbitrary attempts to change the description to "welsh", which is misleading. I don't object to the recognition of Cooper's Welsh roots (which I hope my last edit made clear), but he also had equally strong roots in the West Country of England (where he grew up, where his accent came from, where his mother was born).Circusandmagicfan (talk) 13:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Agreed, except that I don't find the expression clumsy. He was certainly no Dai Llewellyn, that's for sure... Rothorpe (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC) - Well, now it's been changed back to Welsh again, so I shall try this again. Rothorpe (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I just reverted an anonymous edit that changed the description back to Welsh. Although Anglo-Welsh isn't perfect (I still maintain British is a better description) it's better than purely Welsh and there does seem to be some consensus for it.Circusandmagicfan (talk) 07:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Tommy Cooper was born in Wales to a Welsh father and English mother. He left Wales at a young age where he worked in England for all of his life. He was well known in his comedy act for his distinctive Devonshire accent. Please Welsh nationalist trying to claim him as entirely as his own, grow up. --Nutthida (talk) 22:53, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned: A person born in France is french, a person born in USA is american, a person born in China is chinese, and so on. Therefore, a person born in England is english, a person born in wales is welsh and a person born in scotland is scottish. The term british (and britain) was very popular but this has now been overtaken by the use of the umbrella term united kingdom. Especially on websites (notably american-created ones), like Facebook, where under COUNTRY it doesn't even have England or Wales in the list, it is simply UK. UK is not a country, just as simply "africa" isn't. So, if our Tommy was born in WALES, to atleast one welsh parent, then he is welsh. Just as I was born in England, to two english parents, so I am english...not british. Though, back several generations on my fathers side, I'm also irish. Hope this all helps with the nationality/country issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.197.46 (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Cooper was born in Caerphilly, in Wales, to a Welsh father and English mother. Your place of birth denotes your nationality. Therefore Cooper is Welsh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.207.189 (talk) 19:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

One member of my family was born in Libya to British parents, so by the above criterion she should be described as “Libyan” rather than the “British” written in large friendly letters in her passport? Place of birth = Nationality if you were born in e.g. the USA but not everywhere. Mr Larrington (talk) 12:34, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Poor quality writing; please edit or take down

This is easily the worst Wikipedia entry. The writing is not neutral, opinion is represented as a statement of fact. It seems to have been written entirely in a pub by someone who knew nothing about Tommy Cooper at all. Clean up the colloquialisms and hearsay. This article is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. Tom NM (talk) 09:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather than throwing insults around, why don't you try to improve the article yourself? The JPS^{talk to me} 09:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Those aren't insults, they are an accurate, factual description of the extremely poor quality of this article.Tom NM (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Wife's Maiden Name

Gwen's maiden name is given as unknown but his son's wiki entry (Thomas Hanley) says he took her maiden name as his stage name. At the risk of Wiki referencing to wiki I'll make the edit

Son died of hemophilia after being given 70 units of blood

This is not possible. The clotting factors in blood do not magically disappear the moment the blood is transfused into a hemophiliac. If they gave him 70 pints of blood they replaced his blood supply several times over, and it would be impossible for a hemophiliac to die of "lack of clotting due to hemophilia" after having his entire blood supply replaced with normal blood. To me it sounds more like he died of variceal hemorrhages, a common cause of death in alcoholics whether hemophiliac or not, but I have no reliable source to back that up. Then again, neither does the current allegation. --NellieBly (talk) 06:09, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Unsupported gossip

This article is loaded with unsupported gossip and long quotes without any indication of where they come from. It may well be true, but without references it should be cut to pieces. As it stands, maybe a quarter of this article meets wikipedia standards. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's three weeks later and nobody's responded or done anything, so I have removed a lot of unsupported gossip. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

(copied this from my Talk page so it can be discussed here) Hi David. Sorry I missed your talk page comment. Last night I adjusted and added a source for the taxi fare anecdote. But now you've removed the whole paragraph? There was a futher anecdote in the documentary about Cooper habitually carrying a cigarette case with a single cigarette. These seem perfectly reliable "anecdotes" and I'm not sure how one would find any source more reliable. "Gossip" yes, but apparently well known in showbiz circles. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I overlooked the taxi-tidbit reference, sorry; I have returned it. The trouble with things like "further anecdote in the documentary" is that it's very hard for a reader to confirm the reference from this article, to make sure we haven't mis-remembered it (is "mis-remembered" a word? it should be). Wikipedia, for better or worse, has become a global force in shaping posthumous reputations, so it behooves us to be extra cautious in transparently supporting statements - especially for somebody like Tommy Cooper, who is largely unknown outside Britain, which means there's a good chance that English-speaking readers who come across this article will know nothing about him except what they read here. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:01, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Quite agree. Thanks for restoring that. Yes, I'm sure it is a word. And a very apt one. But if you'd like to check my mis(erable)-memory, I think that programme is available on BBC i-player for the next six days. I'd be suprised if some if not all of these anecdotes would be corroborated in the published biographical material, but alas I don't have any to hand. But great to see some hooves at last, haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I see the meddlers have been at it again...POV clocking

The article back in March 2012 was much better than the one now. Why? Well that was before the WP:IDL brigade started taking chunks out of the text. History is written by the opinionated playing with facts. Cooper was, for all who knew him, quite an unpleasant surly drunk whose real character was completely at odds with his public persona. He was both mean in spirit and in pocket. Just because there are members of the public who want to think they knew him from his TV and stage performances, that does not make it right. My grandfather was a cameraman at LWT and he told us that the crew used to groan when Cooper was booked. He often turned up drunk, pissed off about something (usually his act) and quick to blame others for his shortcomings. My granddad never had a good word to say about him. And it seems many others didn't either!! So where has this all gone?? Simple the WP:IDL lot have removed as it does not fit their image of the man! You know he once burnt his head on a stage light because he stumbled (probably half cut) on set and only to take it all out on a young make up girl. She had to be helped from the building in tears, it only stopped getting into the press because the heads from the top floor had to come down and smooth everything out with overtime bonuses and pleas for total discretion. Cooper always used to scrounge cigarettes off all the set crews and helpers; when they quickly started getting tired of subsidising his habit many started to say they hadn't got any spare cigs. What was his reaction? He had the temerity to get angry about their lack of largesse!! It is bizarre to think that such a misanthropic individual like Cooper was ever a star and popular entertainer! Nowadays with 24hr media/internet he would have been a Barrymore; the stories would have got out and he would have fallen from public favour years ago!!! Yet despite this info, it's funny how a myth is more important to some people than the reality?!86.145.7.192 (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

You're anecdotes may well be true. But you present no sources and seem unlikely to ever have any. A statement such as "My grandfather was a cameraman at LWT" is not a source, nor any proof of reliability. It's not POV to remove from the article any material that is not supported by any WP:RS. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 11:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

You need to provide sources for any claims, otherwise it is WP:OR, WP:GOSSIP and WP:TABLOID and has no place here. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 11:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I am an American who has no idea who Tommy Cooper is or was; I have no "myth" that I think should be supported. I don't care if he's presented as a saint, a sinner, or whatever. All I care about in this case is that non-straightforward statements in a wikipedia article should be supported with some form of reasonable, checkable reference. Have any of these claims appeared in a published biography, for example? That's the sort of effort that needs to be made - wikipedia long ago became too important for vague memories to be written up as fact. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

David, trying not to stray into WP:NAF, but Cooper was, and still is, regarded by many Brits as a "comic genius" whose stage personna was oftren far funnier than the material he used. But he is also commonly smitten with the folklore myth/legend of the "tragic clown" whose private life was bitterly sad and depressing, c.f. Tony Hancock, Max Wall, Wilfrid Brambell, Frankie Howerd amongst many others. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't doubt that what you say is true - but it has to be supported by references to be part of wikipedia. "Folklore" isn't enough for this article. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:32, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I wholly agree with you, as is hopefully clear from my initial reply to the comment poster. Regards. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you were the original poster. That's the problem with anonymous IPs; it's hard to tell them apart in comments. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

"YouTube was heavily criticised by the press"

This sentence has been on this article since 2009. Despite allegedly being "heavily" criticized by "the press", there is only ONE single source from some Welsh newspaper website.

The above is besides the fact that it makes absolutely no sense to "criticise" YouTube for this benign clip, when there are tens of thousands of far far more unpleasant videos on YouTube.(Deep Guy (talk) 19:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC))

Yes, that seems very unbalanced, as it was only Wales On Sunday that has been given as a source. But it's not editorial criticism, it is fairly reporting criticism voiced by a number of different individuals/bodies. I have adjusted the text and added a quote, which seems to better reflect the article. But feel free to adjust further if required. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Welsh?

I don't see any justification for him being described as Welsh in the lede. He was of mixed parentage, had a Devonian accent and left Wales at the age of 3! Either come up with some conclusive evidence he was Welsh or can it!--109.149.122.34 (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Define Welsh! I come from Anglesey and I don't consider any mainlander to be Welsh. But then again, we are originally from Norway. I've made a pig of my self!27.33.241.103 (talk) 08:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I think 'British' is probably the most neutral term in this case. If there are no objections, I will change it to that. Zacwill (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

People born in Wales are often considered to be Welsh. His father was Welsh. But his West Country accent ensured the public never thought him Welsh. I'm not sure he really considered himself to be Welsh. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:26, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Culturally, he was English: he left Wales when he was barely out of nappies. And ethnically, he was half Welsh and half English. Personally I think he would have considered himself an Englishman, but 'British' is the only completely accurate term. Zacwill (talk) 12:35, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Many sources give "Welsh-born", of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

That seems unnecessary and awkward to me. So are you okay with 'British' or not? Zacwill (talk) 15:13, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Quite happy with 'British'. Quite happy with 'Welsh-born British'. Other views welcome. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Am trying again with this. Any other views please? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Late to the discussion but I believe British seems to be accurately describe the subject. The current ref appears to be a BBC blog so do not think that is reliable. Born to Welsh and English parents, born in Wales but raised in various parts of southern England. RSs also describe him as such [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. I have boldly changed it back to British but feel free to revert if out of line. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 01:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Cooper's father was English. Cooper is an English surname. (Derscht (talk) 20:06, 10 November 2021 (UTC))

Well, the subject of the article is Thomas junior, not Thomas senior. And, in the UK, surnames are not always very good indicators of national origin. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Height

He was actually 6'3", not 6'4". (2A00:23C4:6384:FE00:857D:599C:F5B9:EF90 (talk) 13:27, 10 September 2017 (UTC))

Is there any good source? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Fez or tarboosh?

There seem to be good sources to support fez e.g. The Independent and The Guardian. But this paper, reported here, seems to cast doubt, suggesting a "tarboosh". As tarboosh re-directs to fez anyway, perhaps this is just a bit of a semantic cul-de-sac? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I can't believe the stupidity of your revert. He wore a fez and only the most isanely pedantic wikipedia editor would wish to change that fact of history. 2.31.96.68 (talk) 14:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

And I can't believe your obnoxious personal attacks. Why can't you just discuss the question, based on the sources provided? If it's worth an academic paper, by Professor Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood, the director of the Textile Research Centre (TRC) at the University of Copenhagen, in the journal Khil’a, why is it so beneath you to at least be civil and discuss dispassionately? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I think you made an obnoxious personal attack by undoing my edit. Scholars may well have debated the difference between a fez and a tarboosh in obscure journals, and they may even have claimed that Tommy Cooper wore one and not the other. That is utterly irrelevant to this article, where such fringe viewpoints should absolutely not be promoted in the lead section.

I don't believe that you don't understand that. I think your undoing of my edit was in bad faith and was done with no heed to the content of the article or the standards we aspire to here. Your demands for civility are hypocritical. I hope that you will in future choose to make sensible edits and to discuss more productive changes to the article. 2.31.96.68 (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Reverting edits? That's not how WP:NPA works. Who's demonstrating bad faith now? You've not come here to discuss the matter, you've just come to pick an argument. A consideration of the edit summaries for your contributions to date suggests that you think most Wikipedia editors are a bunch of obnoxious morons. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I came here to improve an article, and found my edit undone in a way utterly at odds with the purpose of this encyclopaedia. If there was a distinction in general usage between "fez" and "tarboosh", and if the specific headgear that Tommy Cooper wore was verifiably always one and not the other, and if this was somehow so widely accepted that the thousands of sources that say he wore a fez were in error, then you might have had a reason to undo my edit. You didn't have any such reason. The only possible explanations for you reverting anyway are gross incompetence or malice. Which is it? 2.31.96.68 (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I see. Those are the only only two alternatives permitted, are they? I would have thought an encyclopaeida might be interested in establishing facts, regardless of what thousands of sources might have said for many years. Never mind. I invited you to this talk page with the edit summary "take to Talk page? thanks". All I've seen since then is hysteria and personal attacks. The article is currently exactly how you want it, isn't it? No-one can make you discuss something you don't want to, can they. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, those are the only two alternatives. If a single source quoted by a parody website says something at odds with common usage and with every other published source for decades, only an idiot or a vandal would force the claim into the article.

No, the article is not exactly how I want it. I would consider improving it further, but someone like you would probably undo my improvements just for fun.

In the future, if you see someone removing a claim which is utterly at odds with the overwhelming majority of reliable sources, don't put the claim back. To do so was a grave error that you should apologise for. 2.31.96.68 (talk) 23:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I might have apologised, if not met with an avalanche of contempt and personal attack. I see I'm now "an idiot or a vandal". Martinevans123 (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

'Tommy Cooper And The Origins Of Mass Entertainment' by Geoff Tibbs

A well sourced, ambitious, 36 page analysis of Cooper's stage persona and the wider development of the variety/music hall tradition at the dawn of the era of commercial television, all of which he was a part. Here. http://differentskies.net/issues/articles/4/Tommy-Cooper-and-the-Origins-of-Mass-Entertainment.php Can we make use of this? Simon Adler (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Catchphrase Joke

How did Tommy Cooper die? Just like that! By the way, I haven't noticed, does this wiki explain that Tommy wore a Tarboosh and NOT a Fez as is often believed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.197.46 (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Nationality: Welsh & English

His parents were both English, and they returned to England when Tommy was only three. (Derscht (talk) 19:17, 1 December 2021 (UTC))

Did you see the thread on this topic above? The article currently describes him as "British", so what's the problem? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

The categories at the end of his article describe him as Welsh. (Derscht (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC))

I've changed the four relevant Categories from "Welsh" to "British". I suspect that many people will still maintain that being born in Wales makes one Welsh, and that Cooper was thus just that. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Tommy Cooper was born in Wales, his father was Welsh & he occassionally travelled back to Caerffili in Wales to meet family, therfore I think that listing his natinality as Welsh and English is most appropriate and citizenship as British.TG11TG15 (talk) 01:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Tommy Cooper says he is Welsh; https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=262522925357468 and also he is cited as Welsh; https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/entries/73df52ee-8e65-3188-9eea-64e2e315fbf4 I will assume he also considers himself to be English since his father was English and he lived in England. TG11TG15 (talk) 02:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

A great clip from BBC Radio Wales, thanks. But he won't consider himself anything now, as he died in 1984? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes I am aware he died. I meant to say *said and *considered. Thanks TG11TG15 (talk) 14:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we need "Citizenship" as Template:Infobox person says: "Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. Rarely needed.". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Should we have "Welsh and English", or "Welsh-English" or some other formulation? Do we need to have the sources for Welsh in the lead section or could they just go in the main body? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Show me one person born in England, with English parents, who moves to Scotland at a young age and then is described as Scottish. And yet anyone who moves to England at a young age is to be claimed as English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.249.184.159 (talk) 09:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I've spelled it out now - I don't see any way he can be described as Welsh and English - that would just be British. Deb (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

And British would be perfectly correct. But no objection to your spelling it out. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

He was born in Wales and, most importantly, identified himself as Welsh - he's quoted as such in this article. I don't quite understand why we aren't calling him Welsh. Humbledaisy (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Any chance of a consensus here? As I said above, do we need to have the sources for Welsh in the lead section or could they just go in the main body? I'm not sure Facebook is a very good source to use, especially in the lead. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Death on live television

@@Martinevans123: While the fatal incident was on television, I would argue that isn't enough to say his death was - sure, it might as well have been, but the actual timeline of the event is then explained in the section itself, so I don't think 'on live television' need be in the section name, not least because its not standard practice to give death sections names like 'Death [in/on x and y]' (that's the other reason I think it would be better without; yes the circumstances are extraordinary and famous, but the lead of the article mentions them already, so having them in the section name seems superfluous). What do others think?--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree about standard headings. It's a bit sensationalist and superfluous. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I would like to remove 'on live television' on those grounds if that's okay--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

No objections. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2022 (UTC)